Snatching Defeat from the Jaws of Victory
A member of the Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah of America once remarked to me that things would be going splendidly in our world were it not for our propensity to continually shoot ourselves in the foot. What took place at the Kosel on Rosh Chodesh Sivan provides a textbook example.
The enduring image of the Rosh Chodesh davening should have been of thousands upon thousands of religious girls and women davening and reciting Tehillim with intensity, their voices never rising above a whisper. Nowhere in today’s world is such purity to be found as in a gathering of Jewish daughters praying or reciting Tehillim. Even before I reached the Kosel, the sight of so many Bais Yaakov girls brought tears to my eyes.
The images broadcast worldwide should have been of the tiny Women of the Wall (WoW) group totally engulfed in the much, much larger group of religious women praying at the Kosel — numerically batul beshishim.
The idea of filling the area directly in front of the Kosel and almost the entire KoselPlazawith frum women and girls completely flummoxed WoW. When they first got wind of the large numbers of women who would be at the Kosel, they were left to issuing a pathetic “invitation” to all their “sisters” — including chareidi women — to join them at the Kosel for their monthly show, in an effort to spin the overwhelming presence of chareidi women.
When WoW leader Anat Hoffman arrived at the Kosel and saw the area in front of the Kosel entirely filled, her face registered astonishment. She and her group had no choice but to regroup in theKoselPlaza.
Moreover, the Rosh Chodesh prayer gathering offered the media a number of interesting back stories. One was the remarkable consensus between the national religious and chareidi worlds over the issue of the sanctity of the Kosel. For once, Israel’s religious constellation was fully unified about the importance of the issue. The leading chareidi gedolim, beginning with Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman, and the most prominent rabbonim in the national religious world, all called for women and girls to go to the Kosel on Friday morning. And there were busloads of girls from national religious seminaries along with those from chareidi seminaries.
Thus, on the very day on which Israeli encamped in at Sinai as one person with one heart —vayichan sham Yisrael neged hahar — so did the religious community inIsrael achieve a rare degree of unity.
Another remarkable aspect of the gathering of thousands of women was that the entire initiative came from two women, one of them only 25 years old, from the off-the-beaten path settlement of Kochav Yaakov. They decided to do something to counter WoW after aJerusalemdistrict court ordered that WoW be allowed to worship as they like at the Kosel. And they did.
Just as Sarah Schenirer’s Bais Yaakov movement could not have spread as rapidly as it did without the support of the Chofetz Chaim and the Imrei Emes of Gur, so the thousands of women and girls would not have shown up at the Kosel without the call of the gedolim. But the idea originated entirely with these two women, and they conducted the media campaign.
That this was first and foremost a women’s initiative destroyed the image of downtrodden, subservient frum women, and WoW’s narrative that they seek to liberate chareidi women from their shackles. So ingrained is the image of passive frum women that Ha’aretz reporter Judy Maltz called Ronit Peskin, one of the founders of Women of the Wall, a liar, when the latter told her that her organization was behind the gathering.
UNFORTUNATELY, none of these images or stories made their way into the press coverage of the Rosh Chodesh davening due to the boorish behavior of a group of a few dozen young chareidi men. Had they been on the direct payroll of WoW, they could not possibly have done a more effective job of ensuring that the real story of what took place at the Kosel on Rosh Chodesh Sivan would not be heard.
Instead, the media lumped together the thousands of religious women, who did nothing more than daven, with the hooligans under the rubric of “chareidi protesters,” and twisted the explicit support of Rabbi Steinman and other gedolim for the women’s gathering into an endorsement of the wild behavior of a small group of young chareidi men.
Nothing could have been farther from the truth. Rabbi Steinman explicitly conditioned his approval for the women’s prayer gathering on assurances that there would be no violence. The whole point was to contrast the quiet, sincere prayer of religious girls and women with the camera-seeking behavior of WoW.
When I arrived at the Kosel a little past 7:00 a.m., police had already pushed back most of the male protestors to the ramparts on the northern side of the KoselPlaza, where they were periodically shouting and making it difficult to daven on the men’s side of the mechitzah. Their main “achievement” at that point was drowning out the beautiful singing of Hallel from a number of minyanim on the men’s side.
I was astounded to see the media cameras focused relentlessly on the small group on the ramparts and totally ignoring the presence of many thousands of women.
I do not claim to be a bochen kelayos, but it was clear to me that the young men on the ramparts were thoroughly enjoying the opportunity provided by WoW to let out their animal spirits. Their periodic shouting and later tossing of objects at WoW struck me as nothing so much as a plea for attention.
The Brisker Rav famously said that both the housewife and the cat want the mice out of the house. But the housewife wishes they were never there in the first place, while the cat is delighted to have them for supper. The group at the Kosel fell into the category of the Brisker Rav’s “cats.”
Perhaps they did not know that Rabbi Steinman had specifically demanded that any demonstrations be conducted without violence, but even that will not exculpate them from the charge of gross stupidity. That their attacks on WoW would play into the latter’s hands by turning them into victims should have been obvious to any sentient being.
Nor is gross stupidity a minor sin. As Rabbi Eliyahu Eliezer Dessler writes in his commentary on the Al Cheit of Yom Kippur, the first sin is to be a fool.
The women were there at the direction of gedolei Yisrael. But whose direction were the rowdies following? When have gedolei Yisrael ever condoned violence?
Quite apart from serving as unwitting accomplices to WoW, the young men betrayed a certain gasus ruach. Anyone looking at the women’s side of the Kosel entirely filled with women davening should have sensed that this was the most effective response to WoW, both in practical terms and, more importantly, klapei Shamayim. Anything that detracted from that gathering could only do harm.
Still, I have no confidence that if Women of theWall were to organize a similar gathering next month that the results would be any different. I’m afraid that unthinking loudmouths would reappear and once again act as if on cue from Anat Hoffman.
Is there nothing we can do to prevent our communal agenda from continually be kidnapped by those who answer to no authority?
This article appeared in Mishpacha, May 21
You ask “When have gedolei Yisrael ever condoned violence?” The better question is When have gedolei Yisrael ever condemned violence? There are countless violent protests over tznius, shabbos, chillul kevarim etc… Charedi soldiers are threatened and attacked and there never is any condemnation of the violence. When looking for a condemnation the answer usually is that it that these actions represent just a few “hot heads” and that it is obvious that what they are doing is wrong… (Note the same isn’t said about the WOW who are just a few attention seekers who would disappear if ignored). Maybe if the gedolim condemned the violence explicitly with the same fury that they condemn the other things it would stop – or at the least, they wouldn’t be portrayed as condoning it.
Is there nothing we can do to prevent our communal agenda from continually be kidnapped by those who answer to no authority?
Have an authority there that they recognize to call them to order. It might require the personal attendance of a very respected leader.
as the former head of reform jewry calls for war if that’s what the haredi hardhats want, it may be a way to re-engage non-O jews , who are mostly apathetic about israel. but since the wall business points to israel being anti-nonorthodox , maybe there will be increased diaspora tourism every rosh chodesh….
You write, “Rabbi Steinman explicitly conditioned his approval for the women’s prayer gathering on assurances that there would be no violence.”
This sort of condition would seem to be a gezeirah sheaynay yochol laamod.
“When have gedolei Yisrael ever condoned violence?”
With the exception of military action by governments such as Israel and the United States in order to stop the people who want to murder us, never. Not even once.
However, the charedi gedolim have not been particularly outspoken in speaking out AGAINST this kind of random violence. The lack of response to the harassment and stoning of the elementary school girls in Ramat Beit Shemesh was very disappointing. Was there any response to the rioting a few days ago in Jerusalem? News accounts of riots and trash fires set by arsonists are now appear on a regular basis; were Arabs to do this in Jerusalem the response would be immediate and brutal. Rabbi Rabinowitz, the Kotel Rav, condemned the intimidating graffiti that was sprayed on the home of one of the WOTW members but I didn’t see anything from the charedi gedolim.
By comparison, the leading dati leumi rabbis, in particular Rav Aviner and Rav Lichtenstein, have emphatically and repeatedly condemned the “price tag” movement in the strongest terms.
“Is there nothing we can do to prevent our communal agenda from continually be kidnapped by those who answer to no authority?”
Conceivably, some rowdies we see, hear, or read about do take direction in some way, but from community authorities who are outside the consensus of Gedolim.
Great column! The best way to oppose WOW and their apologists is to ignore them or to only allow Charedi and RZ women to demonstrate in their uniquely appropriate way, why WOW is a group of political procvocateurs interested in gaining a foothold where they have failed completely on the ground in establishing a beachhead in Israel.
Ronit Peskin is not one of the founders of Women of the Wall… rather, she has been working is a founder of the rival group Women FOR the Wall. It’s confusing, but in this case it makes all the difference.
Most of the people who talk to me believe that we are fighting our battles in the wrong way. If no one paid attention to the women of the wall, they would not be significant and would mean nothing. Instead by making such a fuss, the chareidim have made them martyrs and aroused sympathy as if they were more than a small number of women.
Most of the people who talk to me also feel that personalizing the opposition to the current coalition agreement as if it were the work of one religious member of the Knesset from a secular party, as if he were the story, are making him famous and won’t affect the “gzeiros” at all. Why compromise with people who call you every vile name in the book and then some. Where is the wisdom of the sages of yore?
“The women were there at the direction of gedolei Yisrael. But whose direction were the rowdies following? When have gedolei Yisrael ever condoned violence?”
When Yigal Amir assassinated Yitzchak Rabin, the knee-jerk response was similar. “He’s not one of us”, “He’s a renegade”. However, two of the gedolim of the RZ world, Rav Amital zt”l, and Rav Lichtenstein immediately spoke out, took responsibility and asked introspectively “what did we do to cause such a horrible thing”?
If what happened at the Kotel were an abberation, a one-off event, then maybe I could understand the dismissive attitude, the need to distance oneself from the behavior. But that’s not the case. This behavior, albeit by a small minority, is regular feature when the Chareidi world comes up against that which it does not “approve”. Just last week you had vandalism and riotous behavior at the anti-draft rally and there was a group of Chareidim who beat up two other Chareidim wearing IDF uniforms. It’s very easy and comfortable to dismiss them as rowdies and hooligans. And of course that’s typical human behavior. But it’s a sign of greatness to look at this, very regular, behavior and ask the tough questions: “What could it be about our ideology that’s causing this?”, “What message might we as gedolim be sending to our youth that makes them so intolerant of others as to act out in violence”? Maybe those questions aren’t asked because the answers are frighteningly obvious. You have gedolim who state publicly that everyone in the world, save for Toyra true Jews, are “rapists, murderers and thieves”, others who derogatorily refer to political opponents as “goy”, “rasha”, and even use Nazi imagery to describe them. Or look at media, such as the Yated which sanctioned by gedolim, and see how often the “other” is degraded and the horrid language used to do so.
Having a bunch of high school girls bused to the Kotel at the command of “daas torah”, many with little true understanding of why they were there, and simply doing what they were told to do is not “news” and pales in comparison to despicable behavior exhibited by the so-called “rowdies” whose independent behavior is symptom of a deeper malaise in their world.
The media got it right.
They do take direction. In Ramat Bet Shemesh Bet, the area that unfortunately gives Bet Shemesh a bad name and where the (do they deserve the term) protesters come from – there was mass rioting a few years’ ago in solidarity with a chillul Shabbos protest in Jerusalem. Garbage cans were burning, stones were being thrown at cars.
But, the Rabbonim said no protests during the evening hours in order to provide modesty to the women heading to and from mikveh. And they followed.
Derech eretz kadmah l’Torah. If all we’ve built in Torah learning shares a core of violent protesting that flares up at will – I’m not sure we’ve built much. And for all the criticism of non-Charedi schools that don’t learn so much Torah, if those kids show respect to policemen, store clerks, and other ordinary strangers – versus haughty disdain or worse – I’m not sure how much we should be insulting them.
Kana’us – which I guess translates to something between zeal and fanaticism – unfortunately tends to be quite resistant to the authority of Daas Torah.
I think the Women for the Wall had a good idea in principle. But they may have been somewhat naive if they expected that nothing like this would happen.
“Is there nothing we can do to prevent our communal agenda from continually be kidnapped by those who answer to no authority?”
I believe what can be done is for the community to worry more about its own spiritual path and worry less about the spiritual path of others. The “purity” you speak about in this “gathering of Jewish daughters praying or reciting Tehillim” may, indeed have been a beautiful kiddush HaShem, but it was still a response, a protest, a reaction to the “other” and the “other”‘s choice to conduct themselves and their prayers in a manner the protesting community chooses to find offensive.
I believe that many years of focusing on the alleged defects of the “other” – whether that other be the hilonim, the Zionists, the Reform movement, the Dati Leumi movement, Yair Lapid, aka “Amelek”, or whoever, has fostered the attitudes which, when it trickles down to certain bored young men who might do better to channel their youthful energies into sports or something more constructive, sometimes translates into violence. And, as klonimus points out, while the rabbis certainly haven’t condoned violence, the silence in the face of violence can be all too deafening, as in the case of the Orot school in Beit Shemesh last year, where certain rabbis seemed to be much more offended by the media presence than by the ugly violence that led to the media presence.
While reading this article, I got the impression that the author was condemning the violence only because it played into the hands of the WOW. Shouldn’t we be condemning the violence because it is intrinsically bad, and a grave aveira? Is bad PR the only issue here? Shouldn’t we be utterly ashamed when our yeshiva boys throw chairs at people? Isn’t there a major chinuch problem here?
The fact that the Gedolim never condemn the violence in their society leads to one of two conclusions – either they tacitly condone it, or they are not good leaders. Or both.
Crowding out the WoW with thousands of Beis Yaakov girls is also not appropriate. Is there no way we can accomodate minorities whose views we disagree with? Is it just a numbers game? We could effectively quash anything we don’t like with busloads of children.
Amen to Menachem Lipkin’s spot-on analysis.
As has been said of others in a different context, “they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity”.
Can I challenge that idea that the Torah is opposed to violence? I don’t think it is true. Cf. Pinchas.
Notwithstanding which it was probably unwise to use violence in this instance since it was contrary to achieving our goals.
WADR to the Gedolei Yisroel… Ezehu Chacahm? HaRoeh Es HaNolad! This is not the first time a group of Charedi hooligans have ‘done there thing’ at a called for demonstration – despite the pleas of demonstration organizers. Could these Gedolim not see this coming?! I sure did!
a number of individuals have pointed out the fact that violence and its perpetrators are not condemned by the gedolim. while that might be a nice first step, i would expect condemnation of charedi gedolim and politicaal leaders whose intemperance is then associated with the entire community, following the time-honored principle of shitikah ke’hodaah. one is left to wonder how radicalized the chareidi world really is?
it is sad that with critical issues facing the public in israel, a side-show can garner so much energy.
Don’t blame the media — they are just looking for a good story, and the hooligans handed them one on a silver platter.
Charlie Hall makes a very good point about the Chareidi gedolim generally not condemning violence after it occurs.
If the Chareidim were smart, they would ignore the WOW prayer service next month and gather tens of thousands of women at the Kotel a day after Rosh Chodesh. That way, no violence would ensue — and the story would be that tens of thousands of women gathered peacefully at the Kotel to pray…a stark contrast to the couple of dozen of the WOW folks. That would be good PR.
If “hooligans under the rubric of chareidi protesters” are a regular feature of any and all Chareidi protests, Chareidi leaders are left with two options:
(1) Resign to the fact that calling for such protests will inevitably result in those “hooligans” hijacking the intended message and stop calling for protests. This option will likely cede ground to the parties they are trying to protest against, but the cost/benefit analysis may mean its not worth it to protest.
(2) Chareidi leaders shouldn’t lead from behind but rather step to the front to direct the protests and rein in attempts to hijack the message. If the leaders themselves cannot attend (and, given their average age and the unfortunate likelihood of altercations, maybe shouldn’t attend), an official representative should be appointed to lead. By attending, or at least appointing a spokesperson and leader, Chareidi leaders can prevent message hijacking. Rabbi Steinman’s personal attendance would have gone far to both prevent the hijacking and serve as proof of the importance of the issue.
I honestly don’t know how people bring themselves to write about our perpetual failings. Reb Yonason, the bottom line is that we live in an Olam HaSheker, far more intense in its myriad falsehoods than perhaps any period in Jewish History. Essentially, you are asking if it’s possible for truth to be brought to the fore – not in this day and age. The focus on, and analysis of, the unique splintering of K’lall Yisroel can only lead to despair. Better not even to hope for the universal revelation of Torah truisms in this Olam HaSheker, before the coming of Moshiach. Better to focus entirely on those pockets where we can still demonstrate the beauty of Torah yiddishket to those around us who can still see beyond both the Jewish and non-Jewish perversion of Torah, and can still hear the pure Dvar HaShem above the din. It’s not the Hooligans, it’s not the Press – it’s the whirlwind of Sheker that surrounds us all.
Kloinimus and CHarlie,
Apparently neither of you have ever listened to anything said by Gedolim. They condemn violence all the time. Their condemnation is included on the same pashkevilin where their proclamations are.
You seem to be no different than those individuals who do act out violently, neither of you listen to what the gedolim say.
It’s a pity that Menachem considers it “news” and indicative of Charedi society as a whole when a group of “rowdies” who listen to no one, act rowdy, but utterly irrelevant when thousands of women and high school students all attend a prayer rally at the Kosel.
One side actually listened to their gedolim and attempted to do something right. The other side is nothing more than a few miscreants [the same group that continuously causes trouble and affiliates with no one in the mainstream of the Charedi world] who acted as one would expect from miscreants.
Comments like these are so predictable and slanted, they drag down the level of discourse on this board.
The mainstream hareidi world has to have some counter-espionage to intercept those guys and put them out of play, whatever it takes.
At least in my experiences with American Rabbis, the idea that they encouraging violence or even intolerance in any way, is simply absurd. They are among the gentlest, most moderate people I have ever known. My experience with Rabbis in Israel, though, was different; they did seem to be much more hostile to anything or anyone that they perceived as being a threat to their religious lifestyle. The difference may be that we Jews instinctively know that Israel is our true home, and as our true home, we feel especially protective over it, sometimes perhaps carrying that good idea too far. A related factor may be the political situation that Israel has been forced to confront everyday of their lives, surrounded as they are by the most barbaric savages in the world today, hundreds of millions of whom are determined to destroy Israel at any cost. Such pressures are bound to effect just about any Jew living in Israel.
Jonathan Rosenblum: I know you cannot criticize the gedolim, but really. Eyzehu hakham? Ha-roeh et ha-nolad. When R. Steinman made his call for thousands of girls to pray at the kotel, what did he and his advisors think? Didn’t they realize that this is would become a media event? Didn’t they realize that given the record of Haredi disruption, violence, and intimidation that such an event would attract Haredi rowdies and thugs whose disgusting behavior would be avidly covered by the media? Didn’t they take in to account the possibility that by having the girls block the space before the kotel, the WOW would have to “regroup” in the Kotel Plaza where they would be more exposed to disruption by the rowdies? It didn’t exactly take a navi to predict what might happen, which in fact did happen. Indeed, why didn’t they take any steps, say having prominent Roshei Yeshiva show up, which might have discouraged and dampened the “wild antics.”
“Is there nothing we can do to prevent our communal agenda from continually be kidnapped by those who answer to no authority?”
Very simple. If you would treat them the same way as (in EY) those who (CV) wear sneakers, play basketball/soccer or sell MP3 players, they would be long gone. Declare them off the derech, and “shun” them. Remove their children from your schools, do not allow them into your minyanim. Declare them from the Keneset floor to be in Cherem, and not part of the Charaidi Tzibbur (and back it up with actions). Protest in front of their homes. Do onto our terrorists as you ask the Arabs to do onto their terrorists.
Maybe then, even if they still act like they are Charaidi, the rest of the world will know they are not.
I have a suggestion! How about starting yet another grass roots Chareidi organization! Let’s call it Chareidim Against Violence. We’ll decide on a way to get the word out, have rallies, send out flyers, write articles…. Of course, we’ll approach gedolim for their ok. Then there will finally be a vehicle to get this made clear, for once and for all.
I elect Jonathan Rosenblum to lead the cause!
Without going into any of the issues, all those above who declared that the Gedolim don’t condemn violence are showing us that they are ignorant of any reading matter to the right of HaAretz. Here’s a snippet from the Women for the Wall’s website:
He made this absolute in advance and said “Heaven forbid” it should happen. So the Gedolim condemned it before it even happened.
I really don’t know what it is that makes people make such absolute statements from a place of such abysmal ignorance, but there you have it.
Harry, I would assume that the Gedolim don’t just look to one-time events but at the larger picture. It was ultimately the police that made the extremely stupid decision to place these women as close as possible to the men, instead of surrounding them with women. Actually, they did realize their error, and in the end frum women did surround them on all sides and that kept the bochurim away. I’m sure the police don’t want garbage thrown at them and will endeavor to choose a better spot next time.
Rabbi Menken:
No one thinks that the Gedolim don’t “condemn violence”. Achmed Tibi (L’Havdil) also condemns violence. The question then is to what degree and how severely do they “condemn violence”, and what are they willing to do to the perpetrators.
As I said earlier, a full Cherem & boycott, complete with protests in front of homes should be implemented. They would certainly do so if a Dati couple moved into their neighborhood whose child plays soccer, or showed some ankle.
He made this absolute in advance and said “Heaven forbid” it should happen. So the Gedolim condemned it before it even happened.
I’m not sure that this qualifies as sufficient condemnation (and coming from a different commentator I may have even read this sentence sarcastically). I think people are looking for violence to be condemned with language and intensity at least approaching the condemnation heaped on the internet, tzniut and other scorns of the Charedi world.
“the Gedolim condemned it before it even happened”
No, ONE Gedol conditioned his approval on a lack of violence. He didn’t condemn anything, before or after. And has any other Gedol said anything at all? I’d be very happy if it were so, so please cite a link. Also please cite a link to the Gedolim’s condemnation of the harassment of the religious girls in Ramat Beit Shemesh, and their condemnation of last week’s riot in Jerusalem.
“Their condemnation is included on the same pashkevilin where their proclamations are.”
Please cite a link to a photograph of such a pashkevil condemning the harassment of the religious girls in Ramat Beit Shemesh, condemning the harassment of the Women of the Wall, and condemning last week’s riot in Jerusalem.
YZ, again, it was said very clearly and emphatically to anyone who would listen. Eli in USA has a brilliant plan. He is nominated to identify all the miscreants so we can find them and “boycott” them, right after we find and boycott all the young men and women who rioted after the NCAA finals, and those who required riot police to secure the Champs Eysees after the Pais Saint-Germain soccer club won the league title.
A more logical approach acknowledges that there are punks in every society, and that they obviously aren’t listening to anyone, and that saying more than was said would have no benefit. But no, instead people expect the Gedolim to make pronouncements that no one will listen to, just so they can feel good about themselves. Yet just as it is a mitzvah to say that which will be heard…
But no, instead people expect the Gedolim to make pronouncements that no one will listen to, just so they can feel good about themselves. Yet just as it is a mitzvah to say that which will be heard
You’re only begging the question. Why is it that a warning on an iPhone will be heard, why can someone be declared pasul l’eidut for owning an iPhone, community sanctions applied against this guy (and his kids), but not for violence? Why are there pashkivilim against iPhones and not violence against the WoW?
Frankly if there were regular violence against the Chareidi community and the PM made due with a statement said in his office to one person, without a press release, without him going on TV, without orders to the police to step up security, orders to the praklitut to convict with maximum sentencing, without condemnations left, right, and center, I frankly doubt that you would be satisfied with such a response.
It is amazing how conceited my fellow commenters are, feeling that they are smarter than the Gedolei Yisroel. Doesn’t it say in the first perek of Pirkei Avos that “All my days I have been raised among the Sages and I found nothing better for oneself than silence”? People should make this their practice when it comes to the decisions of Gedolim.
Harry,
Do think you gain respect or look wise when you intimate that R. Aharon Leib Shteinman, שליט״א is not a חכם?
Are you really so desperate to gain favor by Anat Hofmann and Susan Aranoff?
Actually, Ben Waxman’s comment exposes the hypocrisy and double standard used by these commenters.
First of all, you have to find a practical situation in which someone with an iPhone was unable to testify in order for that to be taken seriously. There is a far more reasonable explanation for why one has posters and not the other: the problem with Internet-capable phones isn’t obvious, whereas the problem with thuggish behavior is very obvious. There are people who have not yet heard the warning about phones who will listen, and so the announcement thus has a rational basis. Not everyone who sees a phone warning will heed it either, but many will.
But more to the issue, Ben expects Gedolim, who do not make PR appearances or make statements “just so they can feel good about themselves,” to act like the Prime Minister, who does. And then he points out the still more relevant difference: the PM controls (indirectly, of course) the police force. The police have the job of arresting thugs of all kinds, and of course do. And I wouldn’t expect the PM to say there will be police enforcement of the law, I would expect him to do it.
Those who got arrested deserved to be, and that is the job of the police. Ben, however, wants the charedi community to impose punishments used by no other — no college whose students rioted after an NCAA victory, not the French on the Champs Elysees, no settlement whose member did “price tag” vandalism, etc. etc. etc. — why? Because they are charedi?
Why is that not bigotry?
The comment also reflects ignorance of reality, as per the following quote from a recent Arutz-7 op-ed:
We have heard absolutely nothing from the government. Not only hasn’t Ben called for it, he hasn’t even been aware that it happened.
Charlie,
I am waiting to hear your condemnation of these who proudly do their utmost to uproot mesorah. Not happy just to privately practice their own interpretation of Halacha but to actively dismantle established Halacha as codified and practiced throughout religious Jewish history.
Those with their anti Torah agendas and their so called orthodox supporters who are the true definition of חילול השם, ר״ל.
The supporters of Women of The Wall, those who ordain women “Rabbis”. Those real misogynists who believe a women’s only real value is she be like a man and does not that’ve their own self worth.
I find that there are some statements and individuals that are conclusive proof that having an advanced degree in no way proves intelligence.
the problem with Internet-capable phones isn’t obvious, whereas the problem with thuggish behavior is very obvious.
It is late and ein li koach to respond to everything. However this sentence made me chuckle. I’ve been in Meah Sharim before Pesach and I’ve seen ein sof pashkivilim warning people to stay away from any hint of chametz. If there is one mitzvah which is more obvious than any other mitzvah, it is chametz on Pesach, but that doesn’t stop the people who put these posters.
The frum press runs stories from time to time about people being declared pasul eidim at weddings when the rav sees that they have a smart phone. I am not sure what your point was regarding this issue.
KT.
This article, which I previously and still think was an excellent article, has to be contrasted to both the above mentioned articles in Haaretz ( the subject of an excellent article in the current issue of Commentary ) and Yated. When both the Yated and Haaetz view such demonstrations as not within the realm of being organized by Charedi and RZ women, such is an example of how extrermist ideological positions lead to the denial of the facts.
“I am waiting to hear your condemnation”
I’m not a public figure; I have no followers; nobody would care what I have to say. I’m not even a rabbi. And I’m not going to hijack this thread. The Charedi Gedolim, on the other hand, have a huge following and should say something about the outrageous behavior of people who are publicly identified (possibly incorrectly) as their followers.
We have heard absolutely nothing from the government. Not only hasn’t Ben called for it, he hasn’t even been aware that it happened.
You’re right. I don’t do Arutz 7 so I didn’t hear about it. I do listen to Kol B’Rama and Kol Chai, and I don’t recall them talking about it either.
On the other hand, while MK Levy called chareidim parasites (I heard that when he did it), I’ve also heard other MKs from UTJ say equally (or worse) things. In addition various Chareidi spokesmen like Rav Bloi or “anshei ruach” (like Chayim Valder) pipe with good ones (and not at a moment of anger, but in articles written coolly and calmly). Fortunately for them, the secular press ignores what these guys say for the most part.
Lastly and most importantly, no one in the frum world needs to deal with this issue so that I or anyone else will feel good. I live in Efrat and work in Petach Tikva. This stuff doesn’t affect me personally. I could wear my army uniform and walk through Meah Sharim and no one would say a word (unlike Chareidi soldiers). While the stuff against WoW makes a lot of noise (and generates lots of money for these women), the vast majority of violence perpetrated by these miscreants is against other chareidim. Its for them the gedolim (and askanim) need to act, not for me. But I doubt it will happen. When asked several times to comment on the attacks on Chareidi soldiers, MK Porush simply refused to do so.
Rabbi Menken: I wonder if you really believe your ridiculous analogy between thuggish sports fans who riot after games and Haredi thugs. But I think no one here really expects you to admit that the Haredi gedolim could be doing more to deter the Haredi violence on the street.
I am saddened and puzzled by the approach of Charedi apologists on this sight. The fact is that Menachem, Ben, and Charlie have all made excellent points that are tragically on target and rather than respond to their arguments they themselves are personally attacked. (They do not respect gedolim, they don’t condemn the right people etc.) None of those criticisms change the basic facts: Charedi violence in Israel is constant and there are no regular condemnations, the committees of violent acts are not shunned, and there is never a cheshbon hanefesh as to why this behavior occurs on a consistent basis. Those are simply facts that need to be addressed and not by calling the people who point them out names. Moreover, the Charedi society and the gedolim very astutely get their message out on issues they care deeply about – such as the internet and other comparable matters – by holding assifas and putting violators in cherem etc. so the idea that a comment made to Rabbi Lerner proves that the gedolim condemn violence would be laughable if it were not so tragic. Without an honest assessment of the issue – a real cheshbon hanefesh- even if it means acknowledging the shortcomings of our leaders or the realization that perhaps not everyone assumed to be a gadol truly is one ( a point that the recent Kolko molestation case in Lakewood should bring home) these problems will continue to get worse.
“But more to the issue, Ben expects Gedolim, who do not make PR appearances or make statements…”
The harsh rhetoric and angry statements that are coming from leaders either directly or through their spokesmen are poisonous. When followers hear these speeches naming, “goyim, erev rav, apikorsim, kofer bikar, shmad, Nazis,”, what reaction is expected? This nastiness elicits a behavior that can NOT be controlled… Whether it is Lapid and his cohorts that are nasty, sarcastic and casting negative stereotypes on the Frum kehilla or vice versa,,, violence, attacks, beatings are the end results.
Does the ends justify the means? Seems to be those that believe it does…
“Eli in USA has a brilliant plan. He is nominated to identify all the miscreants so we can find them and “boycott” them, right after we find and boycott all the young men and women who rioted after the NCAA finals, and those who required riot police to secure the Champs Eysees after the Pais Saint-Germain soccer club won the league title.”
No problem. Should I name names here of the groups (such as TA)? Or if it is individuals and not a group (as you will probably claim), posting Pashkevels in Mea Shearim with a picture and the statement “Rav Chaim, Rav Aharon Leib & Rav Shmuel all place this man into Chairem until he comes to them and declares his Teshuva. All who associate with him are considered to be “Poretz Geder”” would do the job. I’m sure they have pictures of the event.
“Those who got arrested deserved to be, and that is the job of the police. Ben, however, wants the charedi community to impose punishments used by no other — no college whose students rioted after an NCAA victory, not the French on the Champs Elysees, no settlement whose member did “price tag” vandalism, etc. etc. etc. — why? Because they are charedi?”
Besides for the “price tag” (which I wish they would do this as well), they are not doing their actions as an expression of their religion. Once again, if we would treat our terrorists (both “non-Charaidi” and “Price tag”) the way we ask the Arabs to treat theirs, we might get more understanding.
Again, an article from Rabbi Rosenblum with every comment predicted in advance. That to me means that there is no discussion here, no real exchange of ideas.
A shame.
“As I said earlier, a full Cherem & boycott, complete with protests in front of homes should be implemented. They would certainly do so if a Dati couple moved into their neighborhood whose child plays soccer, or showed some ankle.
The only ones who would do that to the DL community are the exact same ones you’re suggesting the rest of the community to protest.
Charedi community divided into two types, pretty much:
1. Keep your head down and don’t make waves
2. Harass anything that moves
You can’t exactly expect the #2 folks to go harass the #2 folks.
Again, an article from Rabbi Rosenblum with every comment predicted in advance. That to me means that there is no discussion here, no real exchange of ideas.
Baruch, what would you have like to have seen?
“Charedi community divided into two types, pretty much:
1. Keep your head down and don’t make waves
2. Harass anything that moves
You can’t exactly expect the #2 folks to go harass the #2 folks.”
I think better of the Charaidi community, that they (“real” Charaidim) subsume themselves to the directives of the Gedolei Hador. The girls who attended the protest on Rosh Chodesh were of the first “group” (if you need to split into groups), and still protested on direction from the Gedolei Hador.
Even if it doesn’t work, you have to try. “Haya Lehem Limchos V’Lo Micha”.
Great article by Rabbi Rosenblum. But how frustrating, how pathetic it is that even he is left wondering whether anything can be done about the problem of the hooligans. The hooligans behave the way they do because they are permitted to do so by the inaction of those around them. Time and time again we have witnessed young Haredi thugs behave like this and nobody does anything about it, whether it’s throwing bottles at heterodox activists in the Kotel Plaza, stoning cars on Shabbat or spitting at dati girls on the way to school. Usually, there’s no Press about and people shrug their shoulders and grumble in private about them. And when there are media present out comes the line that it’s a small minority whose behaviour is rejected and condemned by the majority. It’s not good enough! Just as the fantastic women behind W4W did something in response to the attempt to make a heterodox bridgehead at the Kotel so it’s long overdue that the Haredi communities police their own people. If they’re such a small fringe group then it shouldn’t be too hard to surround them with big blokes in black, isolate them, and neutralise them. Then, when things are calm, grab the louts by the ear and frogmarch them home so that they parents can give them a darn good hiding!
Judging by the response of most of the charedi commenters here, it seems the answer to the author’s closing question is “No.”
Is there nothing we can do to prevent our communal agenda from continually be kidnapped by those who answer to no authority?
In response, I quote from today’s “Times of Israel”:
A group of youths shoved Rabbi David Stav and hurled epithets at him at a wedding on Sunday evening, a day after Shas spiritual mentor Rabbi Ovadia Yosef unleashed a scathing verbal attack on the candidate for the post of Israel’s Ashkenazi chief rabbi, Yedioth Ahronoth reported.
Assuming this to have actually happened as reported, I ask: Is it any mystery that violence erupts when enemies are labelled as evil, compared to Amelek or Hitler, accused of destroying Judaism? This was not some irresponsible kid or journalist or even politician; this was Rav Ovadia Yosef, someone I think most would acknowledge as one of the “gedolim”, one of the accepted spiritual leaders of the haredi world. Sure, Rav Ovadia did not call for violence. He did not physically attack Rav Stav. All he did was douse the rags with gasoline and leave it for others to light the match. As long as rabbis have immunity from their public, including the moderates therein, to say whatever they want, no matter how hateful and inciteful, without reproach, I believe we can expect more, not less, violence in the name of religion. As a member of the non-haredi public, I cannot help but see such things and wonder whether our future looks more like a democratic Israel or a fundamentalist Iran.