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66 Responses

  1. Dovid Kasten says:

    Great article. Strong, full of well thought out ideas, and extremely clear!
    Have to argue with one of the first points, though. There’s no reason to apologize for hurting the feelings of one who goes full out to destroy your way of life, no matter how well meaning he is. Especially when you have a Mesorah to back you up…

  2. Schmerel says:

    Some people have been discussing my article online as if it were a character assassination of Naftuli Moster, the head of YAFFED.

    Say that it was. Why it is wrong? If NM was a guy who went OTD and is currently minding his own business I understand but when you have someone who is the business of attacking and fighting with Yeshivas and the frum world why is attacking his character off limits?

    Why is it different than the majority of the anti-Trump articles which boiled down to little more than attacks on his character? Do the critics have issues with that too?

    • Kalman C says:

      What is wrong with attacking trump’s character? I can certainly understand that his administration was better than the democratic alternative, but I could not vote for him because he is a thief, a liar, a grifter con artist, a corrupt, failed businessman, mean, adulterous, a corrupter of the morals of those who identify as his followers, (rather than mere voters of expdiency) and more.
      I’m sure this comment is late but i am tired of the mendacity and willful ignorance of basic torahdik behavioral standards.

      • Tal S. Benschar says:

        First of all, his point is there is nothing wrong with attacking someone’s character. So you are agreeing with him.

        Secondly, there are many who voted for Trump despite his numerous flaws, not because of them, because we believed the alterntive was worse. You calling it “willful ignorance of basic torahdik behavioral standards” avoids that reality.

        Since we are making late comments, let me point out one thing that was almost ignored in the last election. The ruling group in Iran has openly stated that they hope to develop nuclear weapons and launch them on Tel Aviv, and have openly called for the elimination of Israel. That means Holoicaust II on the Mediterranean, rachmana litzlan.

        One side foolishly appeased this group, in a vain hope they would voluntarily give up the nukes. The other side abandoned that foolishness and reimposed sanctions on Iran. Which hurt them, and clearly, alebit slowly, undermined their grip on power.

        We are now going back to the appeaser group. The lives of millions of your fellow Jews are now at greater risk. What do your Torah standards say about that?

      • KMC says:

        response to Tal:
        i clearly said i understand “voters of expediency”.
        I just have a hard time understanding those who insist that any criticism of trump is treason, or TDS. I have had discussions with people in Brooklyn who say if trump said nice things about Saddam Hussein he cant have been that bad, or maybe talk of gassing Kurds is fake news.
        That credulousness and lack of moral backbone (on the cheap, mind you) is what leaves me frustrated and despondent for our nation of ought-to-be smart, sophisticated and morally upright yidden.

  3. Tal Benschar says:

    Anyone who welcomes state interference in religious education should consider the experience of our brethren in the UK. Several years ago, a Vizhnitz girls school, that otherwise had excellent academic achievement, was “failed” by the British UK education authorities, because it failed to teach the girls about homosexuality, as required by Britiish law.

    One British newspaper quoted the report of the education authorities:

    The report explained that the girls “are not taught explicitly about issues such as sexual orientation. This restricts pupils’ spiritual, moral, social and cultural development and does not promote equality of opportunity in ways that take account of differing lifestyles.

    If you don’t think this is coming to the U.S., you have your head in the sand. The same arguments to require religious schools to teach algebra and Shakespeare can and will be used to require them to teach about homosexuality.

    • David Ohsie says:

      We’re not talking about girls schools where they do get a secular education. We’re talking about the boys schools where they get no secular education past eight grade and no high school diploma. The frum schools where all the readers of this blog send their kids all provide secular education while maintaining their stance against gay rights.

      • lacosta says:

        the RFRA type laws , that are the thin blue line that keeps haimishe practitioners out of jail for practicing their religion where it conflicts with PC orthodoxies , are a majour target of the activists who are fellow travelers of the incoming administration —and especially after President Harris takes office…

      • David Ohsie says:

        American citizens learning English is hardly a PC Orthodoxy

    • Nachum says:

      These kids should be taught secular subjects regardless of the greater agenda of the state (which I share your revulsion of). That they’re trying to push homosexuality is no excuse not to teach important matters.

    • Tal Benschar says:

      Both of you are simply ignoring the point. The issue is not whether secular education in some Chassidic schools needs to be improved. The question is whether to welcome the power of the state to force what you believe are appropriate changes.

      Once you allow the state to force changes you want, what will stop it from forcing changes you don’t want? If the state can say that an educational system that fails to teach Shakespeare and algebra is illegal because it fails to prepare its students for the world, then it can also say that an educational system that fails to educate its students about LGBT rights, or whatever other mishigas they think of, is inadequate and illegal.

      It is not an answer to say, you can have one kind of change without the other. The secular powers don’t see a difference. To paraphrase Abe Rosenthal, “Sweethearts, by you, you are Park Avenue, by your wife you are Park Avenue, but by [the bureaucrats] you are a Hasid.”

      And even the current proposal, as I understand it, would require many more hours of secular studies than even most Modern Orthodox schools provide. So that means the quantity and quality of Torah study in all Orthodox schools will suffer.

      We had the same issue a few years ago when metzitzah b’peh was a hot topic. Many gedolim opposed that, and there are many kehillos that don’t allow it. (A well-know Mohel who did my older son used to do it through a tube.)

      At the time there were many who welcomed the state banning it. That was foolish. If the state can ban metzitzah b’peh, it can ban bris milah (at least for anyone under 18).

      As Dr. Krakowski points out, the facts are not as bad as many make them out to be, and improvement can be had through voluntary methods. That is commendable. Using the state to force changes against religious objections is not.

      The Ramban in Parshas Vayechi points out that the golus Mitzrayim is a sign of golus Edom. Among other things, he points out that in Bayis Sheni, the powers in EY made a bris with the Roman powers, and that ended up with total domination, then destruction of the Beis ha Mikdash and then a seemingly endless golus.

      • David Ohsie says:

        “Both of you are simply ignoring the point. The issue is not whether secular education in some Chassidic schools needs to be improved.” Sorry, yes, this is the issue. It’s not a question of “improvement”. The boys high schools have no secular studies. This is not poorly done secular studies. It is a conscious decision to avoid them. The boys don’t get diplomas and come out illiterate in English with math skills less than my 7th grader. There’s a very simple solution. Provide secular studies. You want to avoid the secular authorities being invasive, then do what all the other Orthodox do anyhow and what you do for the girls. There is no real chance that elected officials who depend on the chassidic bloc vote are going to do anything drastic, but if you concerned about that, then tell the various Rebbes and askanim that they need to clean up their act because they are causing a problem for Orthodox Jews.

      • Steven Brizel says:

        If the courts in the EU can sustain a ban on shechitah, you can be sure that someone in Europe will raise a claim RL against Bris Milah on the fallacious ground that the child has no choice. IIRC, there was a case against Bris Milah in California which a federal court BH dismissed. Such arguments have a way of being accepted in far left liberal circles in the US especially among those who view the Constitution as “evolving” and who emphasize the Establishment Clause at the expense of the Free Exercise Clause.

    • Bob Miller says:

      In the socialist state we hope to avoid b’ezrat HaShem, freedom of choice for all communities dwindles and vanishes. The socialists view each victory as just a stepping-stone to total control.

  4. David Ohsie says:

    Neither of your articles actually addresses the problem. These boys get almost no secular studies before high school and then none at all in high school. They come out illiterate in the English language and with very limited skills in math with almost no knowledge of science. Their high school graduation rate is zero because they don’t get high school diplomas. You would not tolerate such lack of education for your kids nor would any of the readers of this blog.

    The assertion that this would completely remake the entire chassidishe education system and cultures is without foundation. The Litvish are able to produce talmidei chachimim at the same time that they provide secular studies and the Chaddishe places manage to keep their girls in their culture despite giving them secular studies.

  5. nt says:

    I teach third grade at a mostly chassidic school where the morning instruction is in yiddish. Dr. Krakowski’s description is accurate. The parents uniformly want their children to do well in English, including some who contact me daily after class. The school provides tutoring for students who need extra help, and parents have their kids tested for learning disabilities where appropriate. All of the kids can speak English, and some read and write above grade level.

    • David Ohsie says:

      That’s wonderful. So then you agree that the parents want their kids to get a secular education and all schools should be doing so. That is YAFFED’s position.

      • Yossi says:

        I don’t understand you. The state clearly stated that their agenda was even to force the schools to teach culture, drama, and all sorts of things that many in the Orthodox community have no interest in.

        Based on the guidelines the state proposed, even $30,000/year fancy Modern Orthodox schools would be found non-compliant.

        Moster certainly hasn’t shown an interest in working with the schools.

        David, have you found people more compliant when you work with them or against them? What is your specific issue that makes you side with him?

      • nt says:

        I’m not too familiar with YAFFED, but it sounds like they want to micromanage what and how the schools teach. The parents don’t want their kids to have a prepackaged general studies curriculum that may clash with their values. They do want their kids to have learn math and language skills in a way that enriches, rather than conflicts with their Torah studies. They also would not want a meaningless time requirement that takes away from their other studies without adding value.

      • Steven Brizel says:

        IWADR, Yaffed is anti Yeshiva stalking horse. Take a look at Yaffed’s board. Eric Yoffee former head of RJ ‘s rabbinical body is not known as a friend of or advocate for Yeshivos or Orthodoxy. Marci Hamilton, whose report Yaffed relies on, is a professor of constitutional law whose writings , advocacy , public appearances and litigation history are aimed at minimizing the Free Exercise Clause, especially with respect to Torah committed Jews. Her description of how Charedi families raise their children is unacceptable, to use the most polite description possible.

      • David Ohsie says:

        “The parents don’t want their kids to have a prepackaged general studies curriculum that may clash with their values. They do want their kids to have learn math and language skills in a way that enriches, rather than conflicts with their Torah studies.”

        Yes, but the Chassidishe boys high schools do none of that. They don’t have any secular studies. The “graduates” don’t get diplomas and the kids graduate illiterate in English and weaker math skills than my 7th grader. Part of this is the very deficient and limited education that they get in the lower grades. That is the problem.

      • Dovid says:

        Mr. Ohsie, apparently you have zero interest in the nuances presented by Dr. Krakowski. Also, your comment “we are not talking about the girls’ schools” demonstrates how you unwittingly validated his accusation of habitual goal-post moving. Despite your strident feelings, could you please consider an alternative to your punishment-driven approach?

  6. Bob Miller says:

    The NYC public school system and many others in NY State have educational and disciplinary problems that are frequent and severe, and that should now demand the total attention of the authorities. It’s no wonder that distractions appeal to them, as opposed to getting their own houses in order.

    • David Ohsie says:

      No one is asking them to become the NYC public school system. The schools that you send/sent/would send your kids to provide secular education along with Torah education.

      • Bob Miller says:

        David Ohsie,

        Please re-read my comment. I’m pointing out that these authorities are neglecting duties in their own backyard, which should get far more of their attention, as opposed to their usual negligence and incompetence. This syndrome is a general problem with governments.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGxz7Tsmxo

      • David Ohsie says:

        @Bob Miller, that frum Jewish kids who are growing up illiterate in English are not helped by the fact that the NYC schools have problems. I’d be very happy if the NYC public schools stayed the same and the plight of these children was addressed. What NYS and NYC do or don’t do well is a distraction from the tragedy.

  7. joel rich says:

    So do I understand you to say that the state has no right to regulate private education? Whether the state is doing a good job in public education is not the question.
    KT

    • rkz says:

      The state has no “rights” whatsoever.
      Indeed, the state has no business in regulating private education (and “public education” has no moral justification)

      • joel rich says:

        the state disagrees – so see comment below
        kt

      • Reb Yid says:

        The state has every right if the Yeshivot are receiving aid from it.

        And that they are.

      • rkz says:

        As I wrote many times before, I live in eretz yisrael, Barukh Hashem.
        That does not mean I should not worry about the tyranny of foreign countries that seek to control Jews who are still in the Galut.

      • Mycroft says:

        Once one accepts that there mandatory school attendance rules, it is at least certainly implicit that the state has the right to determine what type of schooling satisfies the school aspect. Thus, certainly a state has the right to ensure that minor children are not educationally neglected by their parents.
        This comment is not discussing one way or the other does any particular school satisfy the states legitimate requirements for minors to be educated in certain ways

      • Steven Brizel says:

        The state has no right in regulating the choice of where parents send their children to school, particularly if they decide on a religious basis to send to a yeshiva or parochial school where parents seek a religious education and the amount and degree of secular studies deemed appropriate by the school’s administration and parents. Public school advocates and teachers are quite blunt in stating that parents’ rights with respect to how children are educated end at the school door. I would suspect that many yeshiva parents if not all would object to a secular curriculum rooted in progressive intersectional ideology of any kind.

      • lacosta says:

        but rkz, the government of the Zionist entity certainly tries to impose its requirements on haredi schools there….

      • rkz says:

        lacosta, I assume you are joking. The Israeli govt. indeed tries to bully the charedi system, but much less and with no success

    • Bob Miller says:

      Joel, what do we as Jews do about a state too incompetent and invested in leftist secular ideology to use even its legal powers properly?

      • joel rich says:

        exactly what the rambam tells us in hilchot deot 6:1

        It is natural for a man’s character and actions to be influenced by his friends and associates and for him to follow the local norms of behavior. Therefore, he should associate with the righteous and be constantly in the company of the wise, so as to learn from their deeds. Conversely, he should keep away from the wicked who walk in darkness, so as not to learn from their deeds.

        This is [implied by] Solomon’s statement (Proverbs 13:20): “He who walks with the wise will become wise, while one who associates with fools will suffer.” Similarly, [Psalms 1:1] states: “Happy is the man who has not followed the advice of the wicked.”

        A person who lives in a place where the norms of behavior are evil and the inhabitants do not follow the straight path should move to a place where the people are righteous and follow the ways of the good.

        If all the places with which he is familiar and of which he hears reports follow improper paths, as in our times, or if he is unable to move to a place where the patterns of behavior are proper, because of [the presence of] bands of raiding troops, or for health reasons, he should remain alone in seclusion as [Eichah 3:28] states: “Let him sit alone and be silent.”

        If they are wicked and sinful and do not allow him to reside there unless he mingle with them and follow their evil behavior, he should go out to caves, thickets, and deserts [rather than] follow the paths of sinners as [Jeremiah 9:1] states: “Who will give me a lodging place for wayfarers, in the desert.”

        kt

      • Bob Miller says:

        Joel, if governments everywhere are now corrupt and intrusive, and know exactly where to find us, what then?

    • Steven Brizel says:

      The state has no right to claim that public education and especially the curriculum offered therein supersedes the constitutional rights of parents to provide a religious education with the degree and amount of secular education that parents , as opposed to the state, deem appropriate. Public school teachers make no bones about the fact that parents rights end at the door of the public schools.

      • lacosta says:

        their rights will increase when the left gets RFRA type laws outlawed , thus allowing PC considerations to override any religious rights one had in the past….

  8. David Ohsie says:

    “I myself am a product of charedi schools.” Did you receive a high school diploma to enable you to enter college? Then you did not attend the kinds of boys high schools that YAFFED report on which have no secular studies and do not award HS diplomas.

    • nt says:

      According to Dr. Krakowski’s description, YAFFED’s reporting is flawed to the point of being useless. I can’t imagine having a serious discussion about a report that describes non-existent schools.

      • David Ohsie says:

        I’ll Dr. Krakowski wants to deny such high schools exist, he is free to do so. I don’t think that he will because it would destroy his credibility as these schools are well known to exist. If you’d like to see for your self, go on a visit to KJ or New Square and find all of the young people who you can’t communicate with in English. BTW it is pretty insulting the those Chassidim to make these claims. They pride themselves on the fact that Torah is the only thing they have in boys high schools from morning to night.

      • nt says:

        You must not have read the article. Dr. Krakowski did not say no such schools exist; he said the YAFFED report describes many specific schools that do not exist. A report like that is not worth reading or discussing.

  9. Steve Brizel says:

    Dr Krakowski has written a superb article on his findings as well as the agenda ofYaffed which is an Yeshiva stalking horse No Yeshiva regardless of its hashkafic orientation should agree to or be forced to teach any part of its secular studies that are rooted in the junk science known as critical racial theory gender studies or that is even remotely related to any other part of the intersectional progressive post modern left No Yeshiva should for any reason teach such fallacious junk as white privilege gender is a social construct or that a child can have two Daddies or Mommies or that men have periods and can give birth to children We err as a community if we think that bureaucrats who view their job as to expand rather than contract the areas and targets of their regulations will stop with Chasidishe outliers To paraphrase a vivid metaphor the scope of administrative regulations will start with the outliers and if not resisted by by the Torsh community in unity will affect yeshivishe and MO schools simply because of administratrive inertia and the myopic view that it doesn’t affect our sector or niche of Klal Yisrael .That would be IMO and WADR a villas also mistake

    • David Ohsie says:

      This makes no sense. This has nothing to do with critical racial theory or gender studies. We’re taking about teaching boys a basic secular studies curriculum that the non-Chassidic Yeshivas teach and that the Chassidim teach their own girls! We’re talking about literacy in the English language. Go visit New Square and try to speak English to the young people (let alone try to get them to read something as advanced as newspaper). It won’t work because they are illiterate in English. It’s very odd seeing Jews who have decent educations and would not dare sending their kids to a school with no secular studies telling Jewish boys that they don’t get to have get the same.

      • Steven Brizel says:

        Wake up and smell the coffee Curriculums in public schools all over the US are being subjected to demands that critical racial theory gender studies and the like be included as a matter of course therein If you don’t think yeshivos will be subjected to such ideological demands that are implemented on a state wide basis IMO that is evidence of communal self delusion on a massive scale

      • Steven I Brizel says:

        All over the US school administrators and state and local school boards who are under attack from the progressive intersectional left which has strong Marxist and anti Semitic components to its ideology are implementing demands for unfounded radical junk science such as racial critical theory, gender theory, the 1619 Project etc as part of science and social science in public schools. If you think that yeshivos, regardless of their hasghkafa, shuls and oiur families are not a target of this junk which is aided and abetted by administrators who love expanding their fiats , WADR and IMO, you are living in a fool’s paradise

      • Schmerel says:

        What you are saying is about the same as saying:

        Go to (…community of Yaffed supporters) and see how many of them can pick up a random Gemorah and understand it without Artscroll. Let alone discuss with them a difficult Tosfos.

        It is because these people don’t have sufficient Jewish education. It’s very odd seeing Jews who have decent Jewish educations and would not dream of sending their children to schools where they will probably end up that way allowing Jewish boys to go to schools where they won’t get the same.

        You can nitpick with the above but I’m not going out on a limb here by saying that the typical Yaffed supporters , even if frum, would not be able to pick up a random Gemorah and understand it without Artscroll. Should the people who find that lack of knowledge and understating absolutely appalling have the right to dictate the curriculum of the schools their children go to?

        In the end this really boils down to the rights of the majority to force their educational values on the minority. I don’t believe such rights exist.

      • Yossi says:

        David,

        Those educated people, myself included, definitely think these kids SHOULD get a secular education. What we disagree with is whether the state should force them, and whether we should side with the state in intervening or not.

        I’ll give you an example. I’m pro science, pro vaccination, college educated, etc. Recently, there was a bill proposed (but not yet brought for a vote) in the NYS legislature making certain vaccines administrable even against parent’s will, and even without their knowledge.

        When I saw that, I thought to myself that I certainly would fight AGAINST that, because the government is crossing a boundary. Same here.

        Especially considering that most Yeshiva educated people do fine in their society, and do make a living.

      • David Ohsie says:

        @Yossi: Thank you for the considered comment. Two responses:

        1) You appear to be mostly agreeing with me that there is a problem here. The purpose of the post is to claim that in fact there is no real issue to start with and that Chassidic high schools with zero secular studies and 0% graduation rates and graduates illiterate in English don’t exist.

        2) I’m quite libertarian and I think that there are probably more ideal ways of solving the problem, but there is literally no other solution that has been proposed or is being pursued. Groups like PEARLS are out there to simply claim there is no problem. Setting aside the Chassidic context, if a neighbor decided that they simply were not going to send their kids to school and teach them to read and write English and do basic math, that would be child neglect where some government intervention would be warranted. In NY, the intervention is self-limiting because in fact the Chassidim are, to their credit, very politically organized and no politician has an interest in really pressing the issue too hard.

      • David Ohsie says:

        @Schmerel: I’m not following you argument. The claim here is not that the boys Chassidishe high schools don’t teach Calculus. They don’t *any* secular studies. They leave the schools illiterate in English and innumerate as well. I don’t know if I’m a typical Yaffed supporter, and I’m not sure what this has to do with anything, but I don’t use Artscroll. I’ll admit to using Jastrow for the more difficult (for me) Aramaic passages. My kids go to BY and Yeshiva.

      • David Ohsie says:

        @Steven Brizel: “Wake up and smell the coffee Curriculums in public schools”. Thank God that there are plenty of Yeshivas that have a secular curriculum that they can copy or they can copy the secular curriculum from their own Girls schools. I’m not sure what the public schools have to do with this.

  10. dr. bill says:

    If the situation was not deteriorating, it might be appropriate to engage in intelligent debate. Unfortunately, it is; and while having government authorities step in not even close to ideal, unfortunately, no one has proposed a credible alternative.

    I fear that any intellectual support, even if partially correct, will encourage further deterioration. Addressing the wrong topic even with some insight is still paying attention to the wrong area.

    We are heading into disaster along multiple dimensions; this is but one.

    • Steven Brizel says:

      Dr Bill ( and all other readers)-if you think that the universities of 2021 in any way are institutions of intellectual inquiry, take a look at this article. //newdiscourses.com/2020/09/first-amendment-case-freedom-from-woke-religion

  11. David Ohsie says:

    You write: “Even the one area where there is some data from the U.S. census, poverty numbers are usually presented without providing absolute incomes, but rather by focusing on benefits.”

    This New York Times article from 2011 says that Kiryas Joel has the lowest household median income of any comparable town in the US. Were they incorrect?

    “Median family income ($17,929) and per capita income ($4,494) rank lower than any other comparable place in the country. Nearly half of the village’s households reported less than $15,000 in annual income.”

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html

    • Dovid Kasten says:

      But are they happy? Are they moral? Are they good Jews? Money is not everything…
      Perhaps get your priorities from a place other than the NY Times and you’ll understand just about every other commenter on this article and also the mainstream Torah Hashkofos on life…

      • David Ohsie says:

        @Dovid Kasten: It was the Dr. Krakowski and not I who brought up high poverty numbers in Chassidic communities. However, the post falsely implied that the poverty numbers were driven by family size and not low income. This is relevant to the fact that almost complete lack of secular education in KJ does in fact make it very difficult to make a parnassa that can support a family and requires them to rely on government transfer payments from the US taxpayer and Tzedakah.

        Also, in contrast to your comment, the NYT article does not portray the community as deficient because its high poverty. On the contrary the article points out in the very first paragraph that the poverty numbers do not correlate to disfunction in these communities: “The poorest place in the United States is not a dusty Texas border town, a hollow in Appalachia, a remote Indian reservation or a blighted urban neighborhood. It has no slums or homeless people. No one who lives there is shabbily dressed or has to go hungry. Crime is virtually nonexistent.”

      • dr. bill says:

        Moral? not in halakhic terms. Stealing from the government is not moral, just consider the use of funding for computers in elementary school. There are many other questionable practices, but this one is as clear as day.

  12. Jeff Schwartz says:

    I agree that inviting governmental oversight of religious schools is a slippery slope that can have disastrous results. On the other hand, if a community puts itself a situation where a substantial portion of its people support themselves with public benefits, it needs to expect that the government will try to step in to resolve the problem.

    • Schmerel says:

      I haven’t seen the government do so for any other groups.

      Making an issue about overreliance on government programs would be absolutely antithetical to the politicians and general public who are on board with Yaffed (e.g. New York Times writers and readers)

      Which is another reason the hidden agenda behind this is being hidden so poorly

  13. I have a rather lengthy response to both of Dr. Krakowski’s articles. It is located here:

    http://haemtza.blogspot.com/2021/01/is-there-war-against-charedim-in-america.html#disqus_thread

    • Steven Brizel says:

      WADR, I think that the issues remain that of imposing an unwarranted curriculum and bureaucrats imposing controls as in the UK, which is a pretext to eliminating any aid for secular purposes. if you don’t think that the PC intersectional progressive left has its eyes on the Torah observant community and its institutions, you are missing a major factor that is prevalent and growing in many states of the US that will pose issues with respect to our ability to maintain our families and institutions in the US

      • the importance of one issue should not mean ignoring another one. the problem with focusing only on the religious rights issue is that it allows virtually all Chasidic Jews in communities like Kiryas Joel and new Square to be denied a decent secular education and thereby remain uneducated and ignorant.

  14. Steven Brizel says:

    Myxcroft wrote:

    “Once one accepts that there mandatory school attendance rules, it is at least certainly implicit that the state has the right to determine what type of schooling satisfies the school aspect. Thus, certainly a state has the right to ensure that minor children are not educationally neglected by their parents.”

    This is the opening wedge of the intersectional progressive left to the effect that once there is a mandatory attendance requirement, then the state can use that as a wedge to dictate secular curriculums. One can argue that mandatory attendance has nothing to do with the amount and type of secular education desired and sought by parents.

    WADR, I am not sure that the decisions of SCOTUS which involved the Amish back in the 1970s and 1920s would agree with that comment. IIRC, the SCOTUS and certainly the NY Court of Appeals have also rejected any cause of action for “educational neglect” or “educational malpractice.”

  15. Steven Brizel says:

    If you don’t think that the intersectional progressive left sees free exercise of religion as an obstacle to its goals you are deluding yourself. and how the forces of the woke view K-12 education, read this essay //newdiscourses.com/2020/09/first-amendment-case-freedom-from-woke-religion and any of the linked articles on how the AZ of social justice has invaded and conquered academia, media and the corporate world.

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