Who Won?
Before you dismiss this as naive, ask yourself whether you wouldn’t prefer that more people would write and think this way than what you witnessed during the election.
And whether the accolades to the “Nation” are not in fact consistent with both the thought of Chazal – and recent history.
From Rav Aviner, question as to who won:
The answer is simple: The Nation, because all of the political parties are good. They all love the Nation of Israel. They all love the Land of Israel. They all love the State of Israel. And they all love the spirit of Israel. But no one possesses all of the truth, all of the justice and all of the integrity. Hashem, in His kindness for His Nation, spread the talents and good qualities among the entire Nation of Israel and among all of the political parties. Everyone is required to find which party has the most positives and the least negatives. No one can claim that his party has it all. And if someone thinks that his party does have it all, he is dangerously close to “Sinat Chinam – baseless hatred.” “Sinat Chinam” is hating for no reason. Then why does he hate? He hates anything which is different. It is forbidden to be different. “Everyone is obligated to be exactly like me. And anyone who is not exactly like me is an enemy of the Nation.” Not true! We are all important. And I will remind you who established the State of Israel – it was the Nation. And who was victorious in the War of Independence – it was the Nation. And who was victorious in all of the wars – it was the Nation. And who built up the Land and transformed it from desolation into a garden of Hashem – it was the Nation. And who absorbed all of the exiles – it was the Nation. And who strengthened the economy- it was the Nation. And who returned the Torah to the Land of Israel – it was the Nation. Everything was done by the entire Nation. Our party is the Nation. If only we could establish one party of all of the Jews from one extreme to another! In the meantime, it is not possible and there are different parties with different opinions. But do not forget: we are one Nation and all of the parties must act with respect towards one another, with love towards one another and with the recognition that we need one another. Then, we will have “Ahavat Chinam – baseless love.” “Fortunate is the Nation for whom this is so” (Tehillim 144:15).
[Thanks to Martin Brody]
“all of the political parties are good. They all love the Nation of Israel. They all love the Land of Israel. They all love the State of Israel. And they all love the spirit of Israel.”
I agree with much of his sentiments but this sounds a bit sweeping. Isn’t it at least possible there is a party of reshaim?
he left out the arabs, who lost for winning… in spite of their big increase in numbers , they may reap little in return, sitting in the opposition .
in fairness, many parties on the center and left, though may be seeming[ or actually ]anti-religious, are often motivated by chessed- the plight of the middle and lower classes, the arabs, the illegal immigrants , the occupants of the ‘territories’. and this ultimately is a sign of a child of avraham avinu, even while being ‘ochlei chazir v’arnevet’….
It could very well be that every Jewish political party in Israel offers something positive to our Jewish people. However, there is such a thing as prioritizing things from most to least important, and to my mind, there simply cannot be any more central job of its political leaders, than to protect its Jewish lives from physical harm as much as possible. To put things in the starkest terms possible, if Iran succeeds in dropping a nuclear bomb on Israel, then all other issues that our fellow Jews are grappling with in Israel, becomes no longer relevant, since there would then be no Jews left in Israel at all. And of all of the prominent political leaders in Israel, I cannot think of anybody who can better protect Israel from Iranian nuclear weapons, then Benjamin Netanyahu.
What I am saying here is nothing but common sense, and so it boggles my mind that any Jew could have voted for anybody to the Political Left of him. Thank G-d in this case for Barack Obama, however, since apparently, his hostility toward Israel’s Prime Minister, is precisely what caused Israeli voters to shift heavily toward voting for Mr Netanyahu, when election day came around yesterday. I realize that the whole election process will not be complete until Likud forms coalitions with other groups. For the sake of Israel’s survival, I hope that Likud joins forces with Naftali Bennett, as well as with various other politically conservative groups such as Orthodox Jewish groups. Israel needs to stay strong against its extremely hostile neighbors. Again, this should be just simple common sense what I am expressing here.
The final session of our History of the Yishuv class coincided with the day after elections here. We focused on military issues and then did a quick survey of current issues which were highlighted by the election. And I recommend “Critical Issues in Israeli Society” edited by Alan Dowty for a good overview (beyond what we find in crosscurrents).
When asked by students about the results of the elections, “Who won?” I quoted a mentor of mine:
Hashem did.
“התוכנית האלקית תמיד מנצחת”–the Divine plan always wins.
Does Rav Aviner believe that all ideas, or all political ideas, emanating from the Jewish nation are equally valid or possibly valid? I rather doubt it. Does he hold that no ideas held by members of the nation are so offensive to Judaism itself as to warrant harsh criticism?
That’s fine for a “big picture” takeaway, but for nuts and bolts analysis, I’ll go with Rabbi Pruzansky’s.
Obama is very upset right now and this is scary. We can talk tough but I do wonder if Netanayahu spoke to Congress as an election ploy to emphasize his credentials as Mr Defense over his opponents. This was openly admited in the media prior to the election. Despite every commentator I heard of read while in Israel the past two weeks, he was smarter than we thought. Now, we will see what the fallout is. Netanyahu vs. Obama is not a fight I would like to bet on. Israel’s Prtime Minister has made a stratefic decision to affiliate openly with the Repub;lican Party and is hostile to the President. Make no mistake, Netanyahu is totally, 100% beholden to Sheldon Adelson and this election was only called at Sheldon’s behest because of a bill in the Knesset to outlaw free newspapers like Israel Today.
One billionaire is determining the destiny of the Jewish People. What fools we are.
I have to completely disagree with what L Oberstein said above. Benjamin Netanyahu has gone out of his way to appeal to both Democrats and Republicans. He addressed all of Congress, not just Republicans, plus he spent considerable time praising such Democrats as Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama. It was actually some of the Democrats who turned their backs on Mr Netanyahu, some by boycotting his speech altogether, and others, like Nancy Pelosi, reacting to his speech in a most immature fashion by alternately laughing and crying before she rudely walked out of his speech. Barack Obama should have welcomed Mr Netanyahu, yet chose to attack him instead.
Barack Obama is doing all he can to make sure that Iran gets the nuclear weapons it plans to use to murder six million more Jews, with this time around those Jews living in our Jewish homeland. When Congress wrote an open letter to Iran in protest, only Republicans signed that letter. Democrats should have joined them, but instead refused to do so, and John Kerry has called those Republicans treasonous. In short, the Democrats, led by the very hostile Barack Obama, is doing all it can to help Iran destroy Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu, as the political leader of our Jewish people, is trying to stop that from happening. That seems to be a reasonable thing to do, although apparently anybody who thinks that, is a fool beholden to the pro-Israel Sheldon Adelson. Why it is bad to associate with such a thoroughly good man like Sheldon Adelson, is beyond my understanding.
R. Oberstein – and I say this as someone who knows your children, who sat in your home, who attended your Machon classes, and who knows you well – you are very much tied to the 60s era liberal milieu in which you grew up, and you have never grown past it. And there are plenty of Jews of your vintage who think the same. No one, least of all an anonymous (to you) commenter, will get you to change your mindset. But if you really want to understand current events, recognize that the majority of the Jewish world, as well as the voters of Israel, are looking at a completely different picture than you are. You’re looking at a picture painted by a left wing that’s openly hostile to Israel and Benyamin Netanyahu. The liberal talking points of “Sheldon Adelson” and “decided to affiliate with the GOP” – these are left wing talking points that have been flatly rejected. They’re not even part of the calculus.
Anyway. I’ve probably wasted my time with this comment. The only takeaway I guess I can leave with you is that, even though it may not make sense to you and you may think everyone else is a bunch of fools, rest assured that the people of Israel, and the Prime Minister, are not fools. You’re just looking at a different picture than they are, that’s all.
It is not Netanyahu vs Obama.
Increasingly, it is a very divisive Netanyahu vs every other nation in the world, and increasingly, Netanyahu against a growing proportion of Jews, both in the US and Israel.
Bibi cannot simply geschrai “anti-Semitism” or “self-hating Jews” against anyone who dislikes him or his policies. He has managed to alienate more and more, whether Jewish or not, of those who until now have been lifelong supporters of Zionism and the Jewish state.
Can you imagine the outcry on these pages, by the predictable posters, if Herzog had come out hours before the polls closed, begging his followers to vote because the Haredi throngs were being herded to the voting stations en masse?
This reminded me of a tape (remember those?) of Rav Nissan Alpert ZTL speaking at an Agudah convention.
He related how when they came out with the Yated, they came to America to raise funds for this huge kiddush Hashem, finally a paper …
He said that Rav Moshe ZTL told them ( to their shock) that he did not see why there had two be two newspapers, one for Agudah and one for Mizrachi.
“Why can’t there be one paper. The news is news. They have different hashkofos? Let there be two editorial pages. One Agudah and Mizrachi!”
Then Rav Nissan continued…
“Rabosai. I know what you are thinking! “Rav Moshe was being naive”!
He was not…”
Like many “pieces of evidence”, I wish I still had that tape…
“who was victorious in all of the wars – it was the Nation” The “nation” has been fighting one long battle since the founding of the state. It is not exactly like the IDF has ever been victorious or one the battle. Who one the temporary cease fire would be a more accurate description.
“And who built up the Land and transformed it from desolation into a garden of Hashem – it was the Nation.” kind of a stretch to refer to Rechov Dizengoff, and Rechov Yaffa as “a garden of Hashem” Much the same for what goes on in most of the country.
” And who returned the Torah to the Land of Israel – it was the Nation.” Most of the nation could not have cared less about returning Torah to the land. Clear reference to G-D and Torah do not make it into the Israeli declaration of Independence. Torah was returned by the acts of a few who were often opposed by “the Nation”
“No one can claim that his party has it all. And if someone thinks that his party does have it all, he is dangerously close to “Sinat Chinam – baseless hatred.” “Sinat Chinam” is hating for no reason” – On this point I totally agree but for the life of me I have no idea what it has to do with the rest of the piece. “No party has it all” does not equal that “all parties are good”.
“One billionaire is determining the destiny of the Jewish People.” I am sure our good rabbi meant HKBH.
“What fools we are.” I am sure L. Oberstein referred to Obama’s ‘useful idiots’, the 80%+ American Jews who voted for Obama.
“Bibi cannot simply geschrai “anti-Semitism” or “self-hating Jews” against anyone who dislikes him or his policies.”
That technique did not begin with Bibi-thus US for example has placed Jews who identify as Jews at least in the past 35 years in dealing with Israel from a General who would not work Yom Kippur and pushed for a Jewish chapel in West Point to be in charge of US construction of Israeli airbases after the Camp David Accords to a US ambassador to Israel who went to YU and even served as a dean at YU.
” Netanyahu vs. Obama is not a fight I would like to bet on. Israel’s Prime Minister has made a stratefic decision to affiliate openly with the Republican Party and is hostile to the President.”
Even assuming Obama is not pro-Israel it is even more stupid to antagonize him-for 2 more years he controls US effective foreign policy thus for starters control votes at UN-thus if US does not veto a resolution against Israel it is UN Security Policy-UN a toothless tiger? Tell that to Kosovo. Hypo US does not veto PA request for UN observers-lets say made up of Chinese and Russian troops-what could Israel do?
Since 5 of the past 6 Presidential elections the Democratic candidate has received more votes than the Republican candidate it is stupid to put all of ones eggs in one basket.
Even assuming GOP likely to be more pro-Israel than Democratic party.
L. Oberstein, for your information, Mr. Netanyahu is a Jewish patriot who grew up in a family of Jewish patriots. He and his brothers risked their lives and limbs many times while you were kibitzing in the US. His older brother, Yonathan is a kadosh who died leading the rescue mission to Entebbe that saved 102 Yidden from sure death. Mr. Netanyahu himself and Iddo, his younger brother have been involved in many rescue operations saving Jewish lives and protecting Eretz Israel. He got wounded twice in combat. This Yid, with all his faults (not more than you and I have), did something for עם ישראל. Mr. Netanyahu has all the credentials to speak in security and defense matters, notwithstanding your snides which are misplaced and unwelcome. No one asks you to vote for Likud. But decency and honesty demand every ehriche Yid to rally around Israel to defend it in any possible way, including voting in the US for candidates who will most likely be pro-Israel. You did the opposite. You revealed on this blog that you voted for Obama whose anti-Israel track record, both before and after his election is atrocious.
MK, Thank you for a great story. At the event remembering the Rav ztl at his 20th yartzeit, my brother-in-law told a story about a decision he had to make on something he was doing for the klal, that the Rav approved and R Moshe ztl disapproved. He said he went to … and everyone expected him to say the Rav and when he said Rav Moshe the auditorium became so quiet you could hear a pin drop. These stories of Gedolim who knew how to disagree, are probably viewed as hagiography.
mycroft writes: ” … it is even more stupid to antagonize him [Obama} -for 2 more years he [Obama] controls US effective foreign policy …”
Netanyahu faced a dilemma: If he makes the speech, he will “antagonize” Obama. The bad blood between Obama and Netanyahu, and between Jews / Israel and Obama started before Obama won his first election for president. Did Netanyahu’s speech make things worse? Yes. How much worse? Marginally worse. Obama and Kerry have dropped hints before about their power to withdraw the US support at the UN if Israel doesn’t follow Obama’s script. Netanyahu was fully aware of what Obama can and is willing to do. He took a calculated risk. Why would he do that? Here comes the other side of the dilemma. Had he not made the speech, history would have rightfully bludgeoned him and judged him a coward, hesitant, lacking in leadership, etc. Why? Because he has all the skills, knowledge, and the authority of one in the know to sound the alarm of the mortal danger that Iran is to Israel. Israel faced comparable decisions before the Six Day War, and before and during the Yom Kippur War. In the Six Day War, Israel pre-empted the Arab onslaught and Hashem enabled them to achieve an exceptional victory despite awesome pressure from the US and USSR not to attack. About two days before the Yom Kippur War, it became clear to Israel that the Arabs would start a new war and they wanted to preempt. Kissinger, the then Secretary of the State Department, prevailed over the Israeli cabinet to absorb the first blow. The first blow was so strong that it almost ended up being the last blow as well. The Israelis barely recovered, but didn’t the power to push the Arabs back until Arik Sharon, the head of one of the divisions fighting in the Sinai saw an opening that he wanted to take advantage of, by infiltrating between Egypt’s 2nd and 3rd Armies, cross the Suez Channel and attack the Egyptians from their rear. The move was very unconventional, exceptionally daring and full of risks, and it met with a lot of opposition within the Israeli Army’s general staff. Sharon pushed through and בחסדי ה Israel won the war at a horrendous price in terms of dead and wounded. May I remind the readership that Chazal reproached Yochanan ben Zakai for not being daring enough to ask Aspassianus to spare Yerushalaim?
I dare compare Netanyahu’s position and circumstances to that of Mordechai facing Haman’s schemes and the גזרה of Achashverosh. On the face of it, Mordechai acted recklessly, antagonizing Haman and running the risk of antagonizing the king himself. While Mordechai could claim in his defense מרדכי ידע as the Megilla informs us, something Netanyahu could not claim, not sounding the alarm would have disqualified Netanyahu from a leadership position. It’s just that simple. He had to go and make the speech in front of the Congress.
Regarding the end of the quote: “he [Obama] controls US effective foreign policy …”, is that really so? May I remind the readership of Richard Nixon, an even bolder anti-Semite than Obama that Hashem re-arranged the political chessboard in such a way, that Nixon became Israel’s most ardent defender when her survival was at stake during the Yom Kippur War?
I would like to remind the readership of Menachem Begin’s גדלות and integrity when Israel faced another wretched dilemma: sending troops to Uganda, 2000 miles away from Eretz Israel, across Africa, with no allies in the region, to save more than 100 Jewish hostages, facing sure death. The mission could have ended in absolute disaster, with the slaughter of the hostages and no escape out of the death trap for the troops. Yitzhak Rabin, then prime minister of Israel approved the rescue mission and informed Menachem Begin, then the head of the opposition in the Knesset, of his decision. Mr. Begin assured Rabin of his unconditional support for the mission and that he would defend him and his decision in the Knesset if the rescue mission ended in disaster. בחסדי ה , the rescue mission was an unqualified success, saving 102 out of 104 hostages. Netanyahu’s brother, Yoni died על קדוש ה leading the rescue squad. Let’s learn from Begin that when Israel is in time of need, we must put aside our differences and rally around Israel to defend it in every possible way, through davening, תלמוד תורה, מעשים טובים, a good word to a fellow Yid, and voting in the US for candidates who will most likely be pro-Israel. We must cut through the confusion and remind ourselves that Hashem, only Him, is running the world. Obama, Kerry, Tzipi, Buji, Yair and the rest of them are clowns on the world chessboard with no say in what’s going on around us. Hashem expects nothing less from us than this.
L. Oberstein writes: Obama is very upset right now and this is scary.
He must have meant: HKBH is very upset now and this is very scary.
Obama is very upset right now and this is scary. He must have meant: HKBH is very upset now and this is very scary.
“One billionaire is determining the destiny of the Jewish People.” I am sure our good rabbi meant HKBH.
dovid2, you are saying we should read L. Oberstein’s comments like we do Megilas Esther. While HaShem’s name is never mentioned in the Megilah, Chazal teach us that every time HaMelech or HaMelech Achashverus is mentioned, the author of the Megilah meant HaShem. You instruct us to read HKBH every time L. Oberstein writes Obama. Then, you should not protest his voting for Obama. He really meant to vote for HaShem.
Reb Yid writes: “Increasingly, it is a very divisive Netanyahu vs every other nation in the world, and increasingly, Netanyahu against a growing proportion of Jews, both in the US and Israel.”
There has been a rise in anti-Semitism throughout Europe and the Arab countries that has been seen since the 1930s which has as much to do with Netanyahu as it has to do with you and me. At least, Netanyahu makes mighty efforts to defend עם ישראל. May I ask what Reb Yid is doing in this respect beside qwetching and blaming his fellow Jew?
“This Yid, with all his faults (not more than you and I have), did something for עם ישראל.”
“not more than you and I have” Really? He is a mechalel shabbos, oichel nivelos utreifos, admitted to being unfaithful to his wife, enabled a government that passed laws opposed by every godol in Eretz Yisrael and starts fights with the strongest government in the world. I honestly don’t know about your faults but please do not assume that CC readers are just as full of faults as him.
Crazy kanoiy,
Before calling yourself a kanoiy, learn what a kanoiy is. A kanoiy is not one who inflicts suffering on others for his ideals, but one who is willing to sacrifice and suffer for his ideals.
R’ Yisroel Salanter said that all the evil in the world is caused by the frume velt. An observant Jew knows what mitzvos and aveiros are and he is or should be cognizant that his performance of mitzvos or the opposite have major ramifications both in this world and Olam HaBa. As such, he is held responsible. Netanyahu cannot be held responsible for the list of infractions that you allege he committed because he doesn’t have the concept that there is a Metzaveh and that he is a metzuveh. But the death of the children in Flatbush over the past Shabbos for instance was caused by some aveirah of one of us. As to who is perpetrator and how and which of his actions led to the tragedy, that we may find out at the time we give din ve’cheshbon after 120. We make light of things like talking in shul, a little slander, a little character assassination, but they kill. A person in my shul, a talmid chacham, came back from a visit in Antwerp, Belgium. He was told about the shul where he davened, a real big and beautiful structure that’s hard to miss, that was the only shul that remained intact during the German occupation. Somehow, the Nazi collaborators missed it. Why? He was told because they had a policy which they strictly enforced that the mispallelim may not talk during davening. Not to talk in shul? What’s the big deal? It’s a big deal. It kills.
R’ Yisroel Salanter teaches us among other thing not to be so self righteous and enamored with ourselves.
One more thing ck. How is it, you can’t bring yourself to see the positive side of your fellow Yid. Netanyahu fought, put his life in danger, suffered deprivation, was wounded twice in combat, and lost a brother in combat. For what? For the safety of Eretz Israel, for the safety of Yidden, and yes for your and my safety. Why would he do that? Because HE is a kanoiy. Only that he is not crazy.
“…and [Netanyahu] starts fights with the strongest government in the world.”
Mordechai also started up with Haman, the most powerful man in Persia because Jewish survival was at stake. Begin also started up with the US government when he ordered the bombing of the Osirak nuclear reactor in Iraq because Jewish survival was at stake. Netanyahu does nothing different because again Jewish survival is at stake.
BTW, if you knew a little bit of Jewish history, you could notice that HaShem is somewhat ‘biased’ so to speak in favor of those who dare, if they stand up for the right principles. At times, even when the main actor is not immaculate.
I think it is misguided the way some religious Jews fault Benjamin Netanyahu for apparently not being formally religious himself. Political leaders are political leaders, not spiritual leaders. At least the way I see it, the central job of our political leaders, is that of the Golem: to physically protect lives from physical harm. If they also happen to be religious, that is great, but it should be treated like icing on the cake.
Meanwhile, the hard reality is that there are over a billion very hostile islamoNazis in the world, who would like nothing more than to chop off the heads of every living Jew. Iran, thanks largely to Barack Obama, is rapidly developing its nuclear capabilities for the purpose of dropping nuclear bombs on Israel first, and then on the United States. Israel’s leaders need to be those who have the best chance for preventing such evils from happening, and I can think of nobody more qualified to do that, then Benjamin Netanhayu.
L. Oberstein:
“Obama is very upset right now and this is scary”
“What fools we are”
I get the feeling that you enthusiastically supported this upset and scary man when he ran for President. Just because you’re having buyer’s remorse, please don’t insult the over one million Israeli Jews as well as the untold number of Diaspora Jews who are satisfied with the election results. While they may not agree with your dearly-held progressive world view, that’s no reason to call other people names and sound like a sore loser. Is that how good liberals are supposed to behave? How unimpressive.
Of course, you’ll respond that you’re simply very concerned about the future of Eretz Yisrael and that’s very nice. Perhaps you should leave that to G-d and simply do what is in your power to do.
In both the post and all these comments, no one has bothered to mention that Rav Aviner was a strong supporter of Yachad, Eli Yishai’s party, which failed to cross the threshold and enter the Knesset. Over 120,000 votes, including those of Rav Aviner’s following, went into the trash. One must see his conciliatory remarks, about how we all won and how all the parties that managed to cross the threshold have something positive to give us, in that light — we all know that had all those Yachad votes not gone to waste, he would have delivered a very different address.
dovid2, let me help you. Reb Yid does not believe in a world run by HKB”H, in which a vicious and irrational hatred of Jews is a permanent condition, as evident in the UNHRC today as it was to Samuel Clemens 150 years ago. Rather, the world’s inhabitants are by and large rational, civil, and reasoning. So when an Israeli leader does something that the UN doesn’t like, it follows, by that logic, that the Israeli leader has done something wrong.
This is the same world in which Arik Sharon, the architect of the disastrous withdrawal from Gaza, was called a “Nazi” as if he wanted to exterminate the Arabs (and in which the Hamas takeover of Gaza is, similarly, blamed on Israel).
It is the same world in which the American Association of University Professors, which discarded out-of-hand an academic boycott of openly racist South Africa as a patent violation of academic freedom, today contemplates an academic boycott, not of Saudi Arabia where a Jew can be neither student nor professor, but of Israel, where Arab professors are found in every major university. According to Reb Yid, this, too, is due to Netanyahu, and not due to the fact that the ancient, festering mold of “anti-Semitism” (aka Jew-hatred) has found dark places to grow in the academic ivy.
“How is it, you can’t bring yourself to see the positive side of your fellow Yid.”
Who says that I can’t? My issue is with your claim that “his flaws are not more than mine and yours”. Your argument that Netanyahu cannot be held accountable for his actions because he does not understand the “concept that there is a Metzaveh and that he is a metzuveh” does not hold water. Being faithful to one’s wife is a pretty basic concept and Netanyahu understood fine and well that he was giving Yair Lapid full reign to tear apart the religious status quo of the past 65 years. “Tough guy” Netanyah couldn’t find any strength to get Lapid to moderate his positions. Your analogy to Mordechai is equally misguided on many points, but to stress just one, Haman was an avowed enemy of the Jewish people. Mordechai did not pick a public fight with the only world power that supports the Jewish people/state. Netanyahu went head to head publicly with the one government that has supported his country time and time again in the UN and in other international forums. His per-election comments have put Israel’s international standing at risk. He is now trying hard to walk back those statements but the damage has been done.The fact that he served in the IDF does not change the fact his actions have caused real harm to Israel and Klal Yisrael
Dovid 2:
“allege he committed” – It is not “alleged” it is a fact, Netanyahu admitted publicly to being unfaithful to his wife and quite obviously does not keep Shabbos or Kashrus.
” self righteous and enamored with ourselves” – Sorry but R’Yisrael Salanter never equated a Shomer Torah Umitzvos with those that aren’t.
“and yes for your and my safety” – I don’t know where you live, but I do not live in Israel. The IDF does not protect me.
“Begin also started up with the US government” – Somehow I don’t recall Begin coming to the US at the invitation of Tip O’Neill to tell Congress that Reagan is a naive fool for allowing Iraq to develop nuclear weapons.
MK –
“He said that Rav Moshe ZTL told them (to their shock) that he did not see why there had two be two newspapers, one for Agudah and one for Mizrachi.”
Your story sounds somewhat dubious because Yated is not an Agudah paper. It is the paper of Degel Hatorah. It broke off from Hamodia which is the Agudah newspaper. Furthermore, the Mizrachi and Agudah have always had separate newspapers. The Mizrachi newspaper Hatzofeh was founded in 1937 and the Agudah’s Hamodia in 1950. Most probably Rav Moshe ztz”l did not see a need for two Ashkenaz Chareidi newspapers.
I was always bothered by the suggestion that Jews outside E’Y shouldn’t presume to criticise Israeli policy, Israeli leaders etc, that only people living in the country should be deciding the direction to be taken. That everyone else should just give unconditional support and that’s about it. After all, are diaspora Jews not also intelligent, caring, savvy people who want the best for their nation and brethren? Aren’t we all one?
Then we made aliya.
While I’m not suggesting at all that everyone else should sit quiet and just hand over the dollars, it’s remarkable how your perspective changes when you’re living here. If you don’t want to try it and see, then you’ll just have to take my word for it.
And @Crazy Kanoiy – You’ve entirely missed dovid2’s point. Try reading his post again and perhaps you’ll get it, suffice to say that he’s right on the mark about R Salanter.
Just to clarify my point for the sake of David2 and Ben Bradley. David 2 asks “How is it, you can’t bring yourself to see the positive side of your fellow Yid. I definitely can see good in my fellow yidden. My issue is with David2’s claim that “his (Netanyahu’s) flaws are not more than mine and yours”. Your argument that Netanyahu cannot be held accountable for his actions because he does not understand the “concept that there is a Metzaveh and that he is a metzuveh” does not hold water. Being faithful to one’s wife is a pretty basic concept and Netanyahu understood fine and well that he was giving Yair Lapid full reign to tear apart the religious status quo of the past 65 years. “Tough guy” Netanyah couldn’t find any strength to get Lapid to moderate his positions.
David 2’s analogy to Mordechai is equally misguided on many points, but to stress just one, Haman was an avowed enemy of the Jewish people. Mordechai did not pick a public fight with the only world power that supports the Jewish people/state. Netanyahu went head to head publicly with the one government that has supported his country time and time again in the UN and in other international forums. His pre-election comments have put Israel’s international standing at risk. He is now trying hard to walk back those statements but the damage has been done.Furthermore Netanyahu outrageously claimed to address congress as a representative of all Jewish people. Such a claim deserves to be countered forcefully. He is NOT the representative of Klal Yisrael
The fact that Netznyahu served in the IDF does not change the fact his actions have caused real harm to Israel and to Klal Yisrael.
> The “Crazy” one wrote: “Netanyahu went head to head publicly with the one government that has supported his country time and time again…”
>> Rabbi Dov Fischer wrote a powerful and (as far as I’m concerned) incisive essay, published today in American Thinker, entitled: “Only Five Hours Left to the Fast.” Here is a short quote which expresses the theme of the essay:
“He [Obama] has wreaked more damage on America, and on the world, often through incompetent interventionist policies and equally often through incredibly incompetent inaction, than has any American president before him…Everyone wanted a change and he slipped in. Suddenly we had a narcissistic incompetent, a vindictive and petty megalomaniac…”
The essay is not just an emotional tirade (although it is that, too), but a closely observed recitation of Obama’s historical record. “Crazy’s” defense of this most dangerous of men is rooted either in sycophancy, or fear of a chief-executive who has become a leading enabler of Islamo-fascism and an existential threat to Klal Yisrael.
Crazy Kanoly
I quoted the (virtual) precise words of Rav Nissan Alpert ZTL.
I imagine Rav Moshe was using the term “Agudah” broadly, perhaps as “non Mizrachi”.
He was taking issue with the reason for the creation of Yated, namely that they disagreed with the hashkafa of Hamodia. And he extended that to the Mizrachi paper as well.
Rav Nissan, one of Rav Moshe’s greatest and closest talmidim was stressing that point. That Rav Moshe included Mizrachi.
Shua – If your quote from Rabbi Dov Fischer is indicative of the article as a whole it appears to be long on hyperbole and name calling but short on concrete facts. However regardless of what you feel about President Obama, he is the man in charge for the next two years and he also happens has a perfect record blocked anti-Israel resolutions at the UN and other international bodies. It is therefore foolish to pick a fight with him. Furthermore Netanyahu has also managed to alienate pro-Israel stalwarts such as Diane Feinstein, John Lewis and others. Even the conservative Wall Street Journal opinions that Netanyahu’s strategy has backfired. His comments about Arab’s voting were probably the dumbest things that an Israeli PM could possibly say, and it should cause any believer in democracy extreme discomfort. Netanyahu has also managed to anger French and other European leaders with his ill advised comments on mass aliya.
Rabbi Menken-
“In both the post and all these comments, no one has bothered to mention that Rav Aviner was a strong supporter of Yachad, Eli Yishai’s party, which failed to cross the threshold and enter the Knesset. Over 120,000 votes, including those of Rav Aviner’s following, went into the trash. One must see his conciliatory remarks, about how we all won and how all the parties that managed to cross the threshold have something positive to give us, in that light — we all know that had all those Yachad votes not gone to waste, he would have delivered a very different address.”
I think it’s unfortunate that you felt you had top impugn Rabbi Aviner’s motives. First off, you presented zero evidence about ‘what we all know’. More to the point , you’ve dragged the horse behind the cart. In his original endorsement of Yachad Rav Aviner had this to say (as reported on Yeshiva world and linked to from his blog)
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/284834/rav-aviner-the-establishment-of-yachad-a-historical-spiritual-event.html
HaRav Shlomo Aviner Shlita is full of praise for the Yachad party, stating “The establishment of the party is a historical spiritual event”.
The rav explains that in day-to-day Israeli life members of the chareidi and dati leumi communities are not natural partners yet in Yachad we see them both along with representatives of Chabad and other walks of religious life. Rabbi Aviner explains that the message of unity in Yachad is not just an election slogan but reality and he feels many voters are thirsty for such a reality, one representing true achdus.
The rav continues, explaining the Torah belongs to all of us and it is not sectoral, “תורה צוה לנו משה מורשה קהילת יעקב”, stating he feels the non-religious are not truly non-religious but non-religious on the outside but they maintain the spark inside. Rabbi Aviner feels that in order to bring the Geula closer we are not required to create something that does not exist but more accurately, we must reveal that which does exist and he has had his share of parties that claim to consult with rabbonim but do not, that claim to follow in the path of Rav Kook ZT”L but do not, that claim to be based in Torah but are not, clearly alluding to Bayit Yehudi.
He concludes stating he loves all of Am Yisrael, including all of the political parties but he loves Yachad-The Nation is With Us party most of all.”
In other words- at least part of his reason for supporting Yachad in the first place was because of sentiments such as those expressed in his post election piece. Maybe, just maybe, he actually speaks out Ahavas Yisroel? (I don’t doubt that he would have preferred to see Yachad make it intop the Knesset, but I think it’s both factually incorrect and just plain wrong to claim that he’s trying to give a positive post-election spin.)
Initially, I thought to ignore the commentator who calls himself Crazy kanoiy. Since he chose this name, presumably he wants to inform us of who he is, or what he aspires to be. Normally, one would ignore the rantings posted on the web of crazy this or crazy that, especially a Crazy kanoiy. On the other hand, if his rantings are not challenged, unsuspecting readers may conclude that Crazy kanoiy’s rantings posted on a charedi website are Toras Moshe mi’Sinai. I reluctantly pushed myself to address some of the points he raised because it makes an inordinate demand on me in terms of time. English is not my 1st, 2nd, or 3rd language but my 4th. I still believe I’ll manage to get my message across.
Israel and its six million + Jews are in mortal danger from Iran. Israel shares no to borders with Iran and as such, there are no disputes over territories. Iran is not a natural ally with any of the countries surrounding Israel or with the Arab residents of Israel because Iran is Shia while Israel’s neighbors are Sunni. These are two streams w/in Islam, that have been at war for centuries and regard each other as heretics and deviants from “true” Islam. Iran has numerous times threatened to annihilate Israel and has been looking for means to carry out its threat. If Gd forbid, Obama and Iran have their way, Iran will acquire nuclear technology to be used for military purposes. Then, Israel will be in its crosshairs. So far, I haven’t said anything that an informed person doesn’t know. In this circumstances, Jews all over the world are required to rally around Israel to do whatever they can to protect her. One of the things American Jews must do in this respect is to identify politicians and political candidates who have favorable opinion of Israel and share a sense of kinship with Israel’s values and history. There are plenty of such individuals in the US. Obama is not one. He has a history of animus towards Israel and a history of associating with individuals from the clergy, academia, etc. who are rabid anti-Semite and rabid anti-American. Therefore, a vote for Obama is a vote against Israel. A vote for Obama is a vote against the US. Support for Obama equates to giving comfort to the enemy of the Jews.
Our crazy kanoiy is a supporter of Obama. He won’t write that openly. What he does is he attempts to discredit Netanyahu, whom Obama views as the representative of Israel. Our Crazy kanoiy hammers away at the Netanyahu’s lack of observance of the Jewish laws which in his alleged worldview is a fatal flaw. I say ‘alleged’ because our crazy himself is not an observant of Jewish laws, or at best he ‘cherry-picks’ those laws that he is comfortable with. He ‘piously’ pontificates about sinnat chinam in this very thread, while he repeatedly writes lashon harah on Netanyahu who, if he indeed committed those infractions, he is not culpable because he has the din of tinnok she’nishba. Given his secular upbringing, education, friends, he does not have the concept that there is a Creator whom he owes an accounting. Per מסכת שבת, סז, עמוד ב , Netanyahu is not culpable on any of the accounts the crazy one accuses him until Netanyhu realizes that there is a Creator to whom is accountable and that he is obligated to observe Shabbos, kashrus, and the rest of the mitzvos. For the time being, the Torah regards him not culpable regarding his non-observance of these mitzvos.
The Talmud (Arachim, 15a & b) equates lashon hara to murder, idol worship, and forbidden sexual relationships, incest, combined. As such, I strongly urge our crazy kanoiy to sober up and focus more inward, fix himself before undertaking to fix others. As far as our crazy’s hunches, one can safely ignore them. They are worthless.
The Chafetz Chaim, based on the Sages from the earlier generations writes that mitzvos of the slanderer are transferred into the account of the victim of his slander, while the latter’s aveiros /infractions, real or alleged are trasferred into the account of the slanderer. So dear Crazy, maybe a change in your views and practices is in order. Furthermore, the Talmud in Baba Batra teaches the principle: במדה שאדם מודד, בה מודדים לו., loosely translated: The yardstick that you use to judge others is the very same yardstick that will be used to evaluate you. Given that you judged Netanyahu with מדת הדין you may be judged with מדת הדין, something you should try to avoid at all costs even if you were the tzaddik of this generation.
Our crazy kanoyi writes: “Somehow I don’t recall Begin coming to the US at the invitation of Tip O’Neill to tell Congress that Reagan is a naive fool for allowing Iraq to develop nuclear weapons.” The sarcasm of his statement is matched by his ignorance of the facts and circumstances. (a) The Congress has the right to invite anyone to speak without prior approval from the president. Netanyahu didn’t show up uninvited. Close to 90% of the members of the Congress and Senate were in attendance. בחסדי השם Netanyahu spoke eloquently, his speech was to the point, and it was well received. It is Obama’s visceral hatred of Netanyahu that caused this ruckus. (b) Begin did not tell anyone that Reagan was naive of fool, because Reagan was neither, and Begin was fully aware of it. On the other hand, with regards to Obama’s conduct and policies, people smarter than you and me say that the only choices to explain Obama are: either “he doesn’t get it”, or he is a megalomaniac, or an anti-Semite, determined to obliterate Israel. There is no national leader in the world today who is as scorned and regarded with contempt as Obama. The Western and Eastern Europeans, the Arabs, the Iranians, Putin, etc. all know by now that Obama is pompous, impotent nobody. Obama’s asinine policies achieved the impossible: the Sunni Arabs root for Netanyahu’s and Israel’s success. Putin, the Egyptians, the Saudis, the Iranians, the Turks, they all ignore him and laugh at him. Obama cannot show any achievement, intellectual, political, etc. that he attained in his lifetime. Affirmative action has its limits. It may get him into Columbia and Harvard, in may even enable him to squeak through the programs (remember, he is very coy about the grades he got. Were they in C- range?, maybe C), but it won’t make him a mensch, a professional, a leader. At best a community leader. That’s the reason he hates Netanyahu who is everything he would die to be but will never be. And Obama knows it and the world knows it. The only ones who still root for him are Obama’s diehard, useful idiots, the 80%+ American Jews.
American Jews are being tested. I have in my study a copy of an ad placed in the New York Times by the Romanian government sometime in 1943-44 that reads: For sale 70,000 Jews. Guaranteed human beings at $50 a piece (approx. $675 in current dollars at avg. inflation rate of 3.73% per year).
There were no buyers. Will the American Jewry, Crazy kanoiy and company included state it to the world that they will not let this pass? Will they stand up and state it to the world that they are one with the Jews in Israel? Will they mobilize against Obama’s policies and raise a ruckus with their representatives in the Congress and Senate that Israel’s safety is their utmost concern and that they demand action to ensure Israel’s safety? Then HKBH will step in and fight our battles.
“no one has bothered to mention that Rav Aviner was a strong supporter of Yachad, Eli Yishai’s party, which failed to cross the threshold and enter the Knesset. Over 120,000 votes, including those of Rav Aviner’s following, went into the trash. One must see his conciliatory remarks, about how we all won and how all the parties that managed to cross the threshold have something positive to give us, in that light — we all know that had all those Yachad votes not gone to waste, he would have delivered a very different address”
– if his was this gracious in defeat, imagine how gracious …
Iran has been working hard for 30 years to acquire weapons of mass distruction and repeatedly made known its intention of destroying the Jewish state and its 6 million Jews. We have all the reason to believe that if they could, they would. If Gd forbid, Obama has his way, Iran will acquire these weapons. Obama is an enabler of Iran’s intentions to perpetrate a new holocaust.
Even though Netanyahu is close to zero on the continuum of Jewish law observance, he is nevertheless on the side of emmes by virtue of aligning himself with and leading the fight for the physical survival of the Jewish state. On the other hand, the cohorts of Obama’s Jewish supporters, even those who arguably observe the Jewish law, who align themselves with Obama’s camp, justify Obama’s policies, and join with Obama in demonizing Israel’s elected prime minister are on the side of the enemies of the Jewish nation because Obama is an enabler of the Iranian murderers while Netanyahu tries to prevent a new Shoah. Hashem will not forgive them. And their being alumni of leading yeshivos, or/and their observance of the Jewish law will be their most unforgiving קטרוג. The Satmar Rav (Reb Yoily), an impassioned opponent of the State of Israel and critic of the Zionist establishment would never side with anyone who would endager the Yidden in Eretz Israel. At this junction in Jewish history, we must identify who are our friends and allies, as well as who are our enemies, and defend our brothers and sisters in Eretz Israel by the means available to us:תלמוד תורה, מעשים טובים, voting and giving our support to, and showing appreciation for those senators and representatives who have a track record of being pro-Israel.
Dovid 2: “(those) demonizing Israel’s elected prime minister are on the side of the enemies of the Jewish nation because Obama is an enabler of the Iranian murderers while Netanyahu tries to prevent a new Shoah. Hashem will not forgive them.”
Former Mossad Chief Meir Dagan “Netanyahu has caused Israel the most strategic damage on Iran”
Ambassodor Michael Oren “there has been damage done. Israel has a paramount strategic interest in maintaining bipartisan support”
President Reuvain Rivlin on Netanyahu: ““Woe to us if we see in the fulfillment of the democratic duty of voting a curse or something that must be warned against. Those afraid of ballots in the box will ultimately receive stone-
throwing in the streets,”
Former IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz “The irresponsible man has joined forces with the man who has no brakes. Bibi and Lieberman together.”
Former IDF Chief of Staff Amos Yadlin On Netanyahu’s speech to congress “I think it’s a political game, I think (that is)what makes the prime minister irresponsible”
General Amnon Reshef on Netanyahu’s speech to congress “Nothing good for Israel can come from humiliating the US president.”
200 veterans of the Israeli security services “Netanyahu is a danger to Israel”
Crazy Kanoiy wrote: “he [Obama] also happens has a perfect record blocked [sic] anti-Israel resolutions at the UN and other international bodies.” >> But now, of course, he has vindictively threatened to terminate support for Israel against all such resolutions. This is a frightening prioritization of “personal pique” over moral “principle.”
Crazy Kanoiy wrote: “It is therefore foolish to pick a fight with him.” >> This comment is written wholly in the spirit of the WW-II era, FDR sycophant, Stephen Wise. In this regard, PM Netanyahu has learned the lesson well from his father (the noted Cornell University historian) Benzion Netanyahu, who wrote of Rev. Wise and his cohort: “In their contacts with president Roosevelt, Jewish leaders thought of themselves as weak or helpless. Take, for example, R-Stehen Wise. He thought of himself as a servant of president Roosevelt. He referred to Roosevelt as ‘chief’, and he really meant it that way -– Roosevelt was the chief, and Wise was the servant. Wise was happy to just follow along with whatever Roosevelt wanted.” While the Jews of Europe burned in the Nazi inferno, Wise was busy sucking up to the indifferent FDR. Similarly, even in the face of genocidal Palestinian Arabs and crazed ayatollahs, Crazy Kanoiy would have us follow Wise’s example, and tip-toe around the treacherous Obama. Crazy Kanoiy, for self-survival, you need to take to heart the declaration: “NEVER AGAIN.”
Crazy Kanoiy wrote: “Netanyahu has also managed to alienate pro-Israel stalwarts such as Diane Feinstein, John Lewis and others.” >> Yeah, “pro-Israel stalwarts,” just like Jeremy Ben-Ami and Peter Beinart, right? Netanyahu offended them? Tough-noogies (as my generation used to say). In light of the current existential crisis that Israel faces, these clowns are already nothing more than minor, irrelevant footnotes in history.
Crazy Kanoiy wrote: “His comments about Arab’s voting were probably the dumbest things that an Israeli PM could possibly say…” >> Not nearly as dumb as the faux-offense of the critics, who distorted Netanyahu’s comment as a call to prevent Arabs from voting (in violation of their rights as citizens). Stuff and nonsense. If the “United Arab List” (yeah…they call themselves “Arabs”) has a party platform which one believes to be inimical to the survival of the state, and if that party undertakes a huge get-out-the-vote campaign, then DUH, of course Netanyahu is going to call on his supporters to get to the polls to offset the danger posed by the UAL.
Finally, Crazy Kanoiy wrote: “Netanyahu has also managed to anger French and other European leaders with his ill advised comments on mass aliya.” >> The Pischei Teshuva (EH”E 75:6), the Avnei Neizer (Y”D 454-456), the Chazon Ish (Igros, 1:175), and the Tzitz Eliezer (Vol. 7, 48:12), all pasken like the Ramban that “yishuv Eretz Yisrael” is a Mitzvah d’Oraisa. Now comes Crazy Konoiy to chastise Netanyahu for supporting yishuv ha’Aretz, rather than kowtowing to the feelings of European leaders. THAT is, indeed, “crazy.”
Iran is using the same tactics as Adolf Hitler’s Nazi Germany to expand their empire, former Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) Director James Woolsey stated Monday – by reviving imperialism through ideology.
And Obama is Iran’s enabler.
Crazy Konoiy wants us to believe that Netanyahu is not to be trusted because according to his information Netanyahu is ” … mechalel shabbos, oichel nivelos utreifos, admitted to being unfaithful to his wife …” He restated this ‘gem’ not less than three times in this thread. To further strengthen his argument that Netanyahu is not to be trusted, our Crazy Konoiy brings opinions of 206 individuals about whom he coyly does not reveal their level of Jewish observance. To the best of my knowledge, they share Netanyahu’s worldview and practices. Our crazy one wants to have it both ways as long as he can trash Netanyahu, no matter the consequences.
A message to Crazy konoiy, L. Oberstein, and Obama’s “useful idiots”, the 80%+ liberal Jews from Obama’s sidekick, Joe Biden:
“Folks, there is no place else to go [meaning Eretz Israel], and you understand that in your bones. You understand in your bones that no matter how hospitable, no matter how consequential, no matter how engaged, no matter how deeply involved you are in the United States … there’s only one guarantee. There is really only one absolute guarantee, and that’s the state of Israel. And so I just want to assure you, for all the talk, and I know sometimes [President Barack Obama] gets beat up a little bit, but I guarantee you: he shares the exact same commitment to the security of Israel [i.e., zero commitment at best, downing Israel’s jet fighters on their mission to defend Eretz Israel at worst].”
What good, ol’ Joe is telling you: Don’t count on us! We ain’t going to help you when the chips are down. Just as the US didn’t bomb the railway tracks leading to Auschwitz in 1943-44, Obama has no intention of stopping Iran from committing genocide against the Yidden in Eretz Israel.
I request Crazy konoiy and L. Oberstein to comment on the following three statements:
Mohammad Reza Naqdi, commander of the Iranian revolutionary Guard’s Basij: “Israel’s destruction is not negotiable.”
“Netanyahu: ‘Unconscionable’ that world talks with Iran as Tehran calls for destruction of Israel”
dovid2: Crazy konoiy and L. Oberstein give support and comfort to Obama, the enabler of Iran’s plans to kill six million Jews.
Jonathan Rosenblum in Mishpacha Magazine: An Agreement [Obama’s with Iran] Worse than Munich; American Jews Serve as Enablers
Crazy konoiy and L. Oberstein, Jonathan Rosenblum is referring to you.
From Rosenblum’s article in the Mishpacha: “French foreign minister Laurent Fabius, speaking recently to the French Foreign Affairs committee is reported by France’s leading political weekly Le Canard Enchaine to have made clear his deep distrust (“contempt really,” according to one member of parliament) for both John Kerry and Barack Obama, and their nuclear naivete. “The United States was really ready to sign just about anything with the Iranians,” another member of parliament reported Fabius as saying. What concerns the French most, reports Anne-Elisabeth Moutet of the Gatestone Institute, is the terrifying prospect that if the Saudis, Turks or Egyptians obtain nuclear weapons an irresponsible leader might use them or they might fall into the hands of a terrorist group.”
Crazy konoiy and L. Oberstein, here is your man described by a non-Netanyahu party. Any comments? Or will you disqualify the French because of their non-observance of Shabbos, kashrus, and practice of z’nus?
Dovid 2 – I will clarify my points for you again because it appears that you don’t get it. Nobody Is arguing that Iran poses a threat, The question is what is the best way to deal with it. Is it more effective to follow the traditional route of quiet but forceful lobbying and to take real action if necessary as Begin did, or is it better to come to America and address congress in a breach of accepted protocol thereby risking ruining bipartisan support for Israel. You have tried time and time again to defend Netanyahu yet you have been unable to explain why a speech to congress will achieve any benefit vis a vis Iran.
You made two claims 1) Netanyahu’s flaws are no less than ours – this is untrue as his own personal history has shown. 2) Those that oppose Netanyahu are Obama supporters which equals enablers of Iran and will be punished by Hashem – to this I responded by showing you exact quotes from leading Israeli defense officials who all oppose the approach of Netanyahu. It is clear that not all Netanyahu detractors are Iran enablers. (I do not claim that these people do not have flaws so their religious observance is irrelevant to this point – I did not “coyly” omit it )Furthermore I would challenge you to find any senior members of the Israeli defense establishment that supported Netanyahu’s address to congress the fact is that the overwhelming majority opposed it.
Lastly I voted for Mccain and Romney so please do not claim to know how I voted for or who I am a supporter of.
My point remains that Netanyahu’s approach is a danger for Israel. I have tried to stick with facts and I have backed them up when necessary. Unfortunately so many of your comments are pure subjective vitriol .
Crazy kanoiy: “I don’t know where you live, but I do not live in Israel. The IDF does not protect me.”
Good, ol’ Joe Biden disagrees with you. He says: “There is really only one absolute guarantee, and that’s the state of Israel.”
Crazy kanoiy: ” … come to America and address congress in a breach of accepted protocol thereby risking ruining bipartisan support for Israel.”
Now you are also falsifying events that took place just 3 wks ago. Close to 90% of the Congress & Senate attended Netanyahu’s speech which clearly indicates that most of the Democrats and Republicans were in attendance. The whole ruckus is caused by Obama’s animus of Israel and Netanyahu, his incompetence, his self-aggrandizing and vindictive character. With Netanyahu’s landslide victory, the Israeli electorate didn’t only vote for Netanyahu, but they implicitly also voted against Obama and his meddling in Israel’s elections. Obama is sour because he lost big time and he lost at the hands of Netanyahu whom he tried to humiliate for the past 6 yrs.
Obama, the most inept US president since Carter, achieved the impossible. As a consequence of his appeasement policy towards Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, etc. ended up rooting for Netanyahu and Israel. They, as well as Iran, as well as the US allies, Western and Eastern Europe, Russia, they all regard now the US and Obama with absolute contempt. It’s unprecedented in the US history. This has nothing to do with Netanyahu. It has to do with Obama. Obama just saw that there are limits as to how far affirmative action can help him.
Dovid 2 –
56 Democrats skipped the event. That is close to 25% of their entire delegation. It is unprecedented that such a large number of representatives would purposely skip the address of a foreign head of state. Furthermore even many that attended were publicly highly critical of Netanyahu’s speech including, but not limited to Minority leader Nancy Pelosi, and Dianne Feinstein. Haaretz reported that Knesset speaker Yuli Eidelstein was shocked by the depth of anger he found amongst congressmen about Netanyahu’s speech. Eidelstein stated that this anger was found even amongst strong supporters of Israel.
Furthermore your comments about President Obama and affirmative action smack of racism and are highly inappropriate.
Crazy,
You’ve finally gone truly nuts; if there was a breach of protocol [and there was, and it was intentional], it was not Netanyahu’s, but John Boehner’s. It isn’t the job of the Prime Minister of a foreign country to supervise communications between the branches of the federal government of the United States. This is rather obvious, and has been treated as obvious by every party in every case… until now, when Boehner invited Netanyahu to deliver a message that everyone agreed wouldn’t be to Obama’s liking.
It is not merely true that the response of the Congressional [Democratic] Black Caucus was driven by racial preference (“It’s not simply about President Obama being a black man disrespected by a foreign leader. It’s deeper than that.”) — the entire response from Democrats reeked of singling out the leader of the State of Israel for unique treatment. Boehner dissed the President, and the Democrats responded by finding a Jew to blame.
Benjamin Disraeli said that there are lies, big lies, and statistics. Our Crazy kanoiy engages in the last. 56 democrats skipped the events? Why don’t you highlight that almost 90% of the Senate & House members WERE present? Are you that crazy to believe that 90% attendance is worse to 10% no-shows? Who has more to worry, Netanyahu who had 90% Senate & House members attending, or Obama? The Senate and House members’ 90% attendance, plus Netanyahu’s election victory are seen by everyone as a vote of non-confidence in Obama.
Crazy kanoiy” … your comments about President Obama and affirmative action smack of racism and are highly inappropriate.”
To liberals, emmes always smacks of “highly inappropriate”. I look forward to your accusing me of sexism when commenting in the near future on Hillary’s deceitfulness and fraudulent conduct which leaves Bill in the dust.
Dovid 2 – Once again you fail to grasp the point. My point and that of Ambassador Oren and that of Knesset speaker Edelstein was that Netanyahu is hightening tensions with the p resident and putting bi partisan support for Israel at risk. The 90 percent number does not address this point because the congress is controlled bty Republicans who are more than happy to have any world leader make Obama look like a fool in public. Of course Republicans were overjoyed he played right into the partisan divide. That is why the Democratic number that I quoted is more relevant to the discussion at hand. This is not my argument but rather the argument made by the leading lights of the Israeli defence establishment.
Yaakov Menken -I am sure that you knew that the idea for the invite was the brainchild of current ambassador Dermer and PM Netanyahu. They knew full well that this was not regular diplomatic protocol Boehner was more than happy to accede to the Dermer / Netanyahu rrquest because it would play out perfectly for his diplomatic advantage. Gedolei Yisrael of previous generations always held that when in galus we do not pick fights with those in power. Gedolei Yisrael of this generation have also gone on record opposing Netanyahus speech and policies.
[It is incorrect to assert — even were we to accept ad arguendo that the Israelis came up with the idea entirely on their own — that it was out of place for Boehner to “accede,” or that it was somehow Netanyahu’s responsibility to inform the President of Boehner’s invitation. In this context your comments about the Gedolei Yisrael are quite irrelevant — I was not arguing the wisdom of the whole affair, or whether our Gedolim would have advised otherwise if consulted. You stated specifically that Netanyahu came and addressed Congress “in a breach of accepted protocol,” when this was simply untrue. The Democrats blaming Netanyahu for Boehner’s deviation from protocol are following a long (and ugly) tradition. –YM]
Crazy kanoiy, you’re beating a dead horse. Your Community-Organizer-in-Chief displays a collection of attributes, hard to duplicate: arrogant, ignorant, naïve, inept, vindictive, narcissistic, and a bissele anti-Semitic. Here is a description of Obama’s record in Iraq [I would add in the Middle East] by James Jeffrey, Obama’s former ambassador to Iraq: “We’re in a g__damn free fall.”
You’re arguing about Netanyahu’s table manners. You hold he doesn’t have them. I hold it’s irrelevant. It appears to me that the outcome of the Iran deal became clear to Netanyahu a while ago and his speech in the Congress, as well as his subsequent statements are meant to manage our expectations for the day when Israel strikes Iran. He trusts Iran would try to destroy Israel as soon as it thinks it has the means to do so. He also trusts that Obama will countenance the destruction of Israel with equanimity and withhold transfer of essential hardware at crucial time on some technicality in the hope that Israel is finished for good. Alas, neither Harvard nor Columbia taught your Prez that “נצח ישראל לא ישקר” While it might be too much to expect Obama to consult Sefer Shmuel, it would have been instructive for him to consult with Mark Twain about Jews. Evidently, the genocidal teachings of the Quran are closer to his heart. Netanyahu understands that with Iran’s current leadership there is no middle ground. It is either they or us. So he will preempt. At this junction, every Jew’s duty is rally around Israel.
Crazy kanoiy writes: “Gedolei Yisrael of this generation have also gone on record opposing Netanyahus speech and policies.”
Please tell us whom you are referring to, and show your sources!
Two quotes gleaned from Crazy kanoiy’s comments:
“Once again you fail to grasp the point.” and
“I will clarify my points for you again because it appears that you don’t get it.”
I am always grateful to those who remind me of my humble intellectual prowess. As such, Crazy kanoiy, you have my thanks. Your condescension is nothing short of presidential. So is the spin [read deception] you put on events.
Crazy kanoiy writes: “The 90 percent number does not address this point because the congress is controlled bty Republicans who are more than happy to have any world leader make Obama look like a fool in public. [No one can make Obama make look like a fool better than Obama himself] Of course Republicans were overjoyed he played right into the partisan divide. That is why the Democratic number that I quoted is more relevant to the discussion at hand.”
Again, you’re deceptive. Considering that there are 188 Democrats in the House of Representatives and 46 U.S. senators who caucus as Democrats (including two Independents), your 56 democrats that skipped the speech are is still less than a quarter of all congressional Democrats. In other words, 75% of democrats attended Netanyahu’s speech’ 25% skipped. Furthermore, Chuck Schumer, the future Democratic leader, plus other key players in the Democrat caucus who did attend the speech, have cosponsored the Corker bill, such as Sens. Ben Cardin (MD), Tim Kaine (VA), Bill Nelson (FL), Joe Donnelly (IN), Heidi Heitkamp (ND) and Angus King (ME), an independent who caucuses with Democrats. Obama is trying mightily to oppose this bill as it could scuttle his Iran deal. As you see, Netanyahu’s speech wasn’t a stunt designed for Israeli elections, but a necessary and successful wake-up call.
Crazy kanoiy, it’s two weeks since I challenged you to provide (a) the names of “Gedolei Yisrael of this generation” that you claim “have also gone on record opposing Netanyahus speech and policies.”, and (b) to provide your sources (verifiable ones). You didn’t or couldn’t meet my challenge.
May I assume that you bluffed and knowingly misled CC readership? I remember your pontificating about Netanyahu’s lack of observance of the Jewish law. You wrote: “He [Netanyahu] is a mechalel shabbos, oichel nivelos utreifos …” Didn’t you just shove some morsels of “nivelos utreifos” down our throats to use your words?
To the Moderator: Please post the above comment! People hide behind the anonymity that the Internet affords them to lie and fool the public. We have to strive to expose them whenever possible. This Crazy kanoiy is a case in point.
Dovid 2 – I have stopped posting on this thread because this argument is going in circles. You have avoided providing a coherent response to any of my points. Instead you ramble on about how American Jews are “liberal, Iran enablers etc..”
You originally claimed that “Netanyahu’s flaws are no less than mine and yours” when I detailed some of his egregious flaws you responded by referring to them as “alleged”. I provided you with evidence to back up my claims. However you have still failed to retract your original statement.
I claimed that Netanyahu was misguided with his speech to congress. I provided you with a comprehensive list of many Israeli diplomatic, political, military and intelligence people who have all come out publicly on how Netanyahu and his policies have hurt Israel. I challenged you to find one person from the Israeli Intelligence community that supported Netanyahu’s speech. So far you have failed to respond.
I claimed that Gedolim have spoken out against Netanyahu’s speech. Many have but for one example Rav Mattisyahu Solomon Shlit”a who chose the Netanyahu speech to congress as his topic for his (1st night) Purim night drasha in Beth Medrash Govoha this year. Rav Solomon referred to PM Netanyahu as a Chutzpinyak. (The Lakewood Roshei Yeshiva were also present at Rav Solomon’s speech).
As for your comment on anonymity, it is not like Dovid2 is exactly revealing your identity. As for the rest of your claim I would refer to the words of Chazal “Kol Haposel B’mumoh Posul”
Crazy kanoiy, it’s now three weeks since I challenged you to provide (a) the names of “Gedolei Yisrael of this generation” that you claim “have also gone on record opposing Netanyahus speech and policies.”, and (b) to provide your sources (verifiable ones). You failed to meet my challenge. All you did was to provide the name of the Mashgiach of the BMG w/o providing a verifiable source. If he spoke on Purim, his drasha was recorded. Where is the recording? If you make a claim, be prepared to provide evidence thereof as well. Until you back up your claims, you status as a bluffer stays unchanged because you are not בחזקת כשרות (presumption of being trustworthy). You slander a person, not once but three times which is a well publicized negative commandment in the Torah. And you slander Eretz Israel (מוצא דבת הארץ) and you do it brazenly in public. You state in one of your comments: “And who built up the Land and transformed it from desolation into a garden of Hashem – it was the Nation.” kind of a stretch to refer to Rechov Dizengoff, and Rechov Yaffa as “a garden of Hashem” Much the same for what goes on in most of the country. “ Fool !!! Yehoshua bin Nun said of Eretz Israel: “ טובה הארץ מאד מאד“ (Eretz Israel is very, very good.) He was referring to Eretz Israel still occupied and controlled by the Canaanites. As such, you crazy kanoyi are ill-suited and ill-advised to comment on Eretz Israel. Even on Rechov Dizengoff.
“I provided you with a comprehensive list of many Israeli diplomatic, political, military and intelligence people who have all come out publicly on how Netanyahu and his policies have hurt Israel.” The common denominator of all you named is: They are all (a) former this or former that, and (b) with two exceptions, they ALL were members in political parties that were rivals to Likud and Netanyahu. Given Netanyahu’s known oratorial talents, they were afraid that the speech will diminish their chances to win in the upcoming elections. The two exceptions: Mofaz, whose political career was a 100% fiasco and whose party, Kadima, dropped dead. The other one is Meir Dagan whose contract as head of the Mossad was not renewed after the fiasco of the Dubai assassination affair in 2010 which exposed Mossad agents with their photos on front pages. “Dagan had been in the job too long, anonymous ex-Mossad insiders sniped. He had become dangerously over-confident.” In other words Dagan seems to have an axe to grind.
With regard to your “I challenged you to find one person from the Israeli Intelligence community that supported Netanyahu’s speech.” I can’t respond for the obvious reason that no one is privy to their views as long as they are in active service.
Dovid 2 your overheated rhetoric is getting stale. You make entirely unsubstantiated claims of slander and diba rah yet you have no problem referring to the overwhelming majority of American Jews as “useful idiots”. You have also appear to have no qualms making racist comments against President Obama on this site and others by writing things like “you voted for a black” and “affirmative action will only take you so far”. As for Rav Matisyahu Solomons speech it was said in front of hundreds of people you can verify it’s accuracy quite easily. Lastly we can go on arguing forever, but only time will tell if PM Netanyahu who presided over a government that tried to destroy the religious status quo of the past 60 years and has managed to anger world leaders world over will somehow stop the Iran nuclear program and bring peace and posterity to Israel. Somehow I highly doubt it.
Your brazenness is nothing short of astounding. It takes one no more than 20 seconds to copy all the comments in this thread, paste them into MSWord, and search for the word “black” to find out that I didn’t write the word “black” in any of my comments. Why should I? Isn’t it obvious Obama is black? Besides, I don’t give a hoot about the color of Obama’s skin.
Again crazy kanoyi, you beat around the bush. Your repeated claims of many Gedolim criticizing Netanyahu for the speech turned to be just a bluff. If the Mashgiach of BMG’s drasha was on Purim, he must have been recorded. You couldn’t direct us to the recording. You claim that hundreds attended the drasha. Give me the names and the tel.numbers of two kosher Yidden who can confirm your allegations. But kosher Yidden, no crazy kanoyis. Until then, don’t waste your breath.
After a cheshbon hanefesh, I came to the conclusion that I have nothing to apologize for my comments re. Obama and the useful idiots who voted him into office. In the crowded cohort of Israel haters and Jewish haters, Obama sits in its front row; the useful idiots enabled him to occupy that seat. Regarding them, I take my cue from Bret Stephens, Wall Street Journal’s foreign-affairs deputy editor, who advised Israel regarding Obama’s repeated and unwarranted snubs to meet contempt with contempt. In my turn, I have nothing but contempt for Obama and his enablers.
Crazy kanoi, you made a claim (that many G’dolim were critical of Netanyahu’s speech before the Senate & House), and you repeated this claim several times. Nonetheless, when asked to back up your claim with names and evidence that they indeed said what you claimed, you conveniently went off on a tangent to with personal attacks about Obama, black, etc. I haven’t heard G’dolei Torah commenting on Israeli government’s foreign policies in the past 30 years. Give the names of the G’dolim, or concede that you lied and keep quiet.