Trump Is No Fascist, And There Is No War Against Torah
We would not expect better from someone as morally and intellectually handicapped as AOC. She had this priceless response to an unnamed, senior House Democrat who said that Democratic leaders had resigned themselves to a second Trump presidency: “If you’re a ‘senior Democrat’ that feels this way you should absolutely retire and make space for true leadership that refuses to resign themselves to fascism.”
Fascism. As in Mussolini. You know, the kind of people that have to be eliminated, usually violently. This, after the assassination attempt on POTUS 45. Saner voices on both sides of the aisle had urged lowering the volume, and cutting down on the hyperbole. They cautioned that the pervasive, inflammatory rhetoric that surrounds us might very well lead to more violence. AOC’s contribution was to keep heaping it on.
But wait! Are we doing any better? Do we eschew overheated language, or are we awash in it?
We keep on hearing that Israel/the Supreme Court/the accursed Zionists (take your pick) has/have launched a “war against Torah.” That is the party line. See the many references to it in the kol koreis, the op-eds, and the comboxes.
Like him or not, Trump is not a fascist. And there is no war against Torah. Calling it such inflames the masses (and is great for fund-raising), but masks the real issues. When you are unaware of the issues, you cannot hope to address them.
There is no war against Torah. And the Supreme Court did not order the drafting of all charedim. The law of the land is that all people are required to register for the draft, and serve their embattled country if called up. Full-time learners have enjoyed an exemption from service for decades. The Court has long argued that this was unfair, and therefore illegal. It gave the government deadlines to come up with some equitable solution. The Court found the government’s proposal inadequate, which means that charedim – the legitimate learners, the part-timers, and the non-learners – are subject to call-up. No one – least of all the IDF – wants 70,000 charedim in the army. The ball is now in the court of the government to come up with a plan.
It is not a war on Torah. The government has been supporting an ever-growing force of learners for decades, much to the chagrin of a cash-strapped populace that resents paying for them. It has not been unfriendly to tradition, and the country as a whole has been getting more traditional – especially after Oct. 7th. But even if it shuttered every charedi yeshiva in the country, the light of Torah would not c”v be extinguished in Israel. Scores of non-charedi yeshivos are spread throughout the Land. In fact, one of the reasons that so much rage is directed these days at charedim is the latter claim that their Torah protects the nation, and determines the success of its soldiers. This claim effectively invalidates all of the Torah of tens of thousands of learners outside charedi circles. What arrogant condescension!
The Supreme Court did not declare war on Torah. That does not mean that some members wouldn’t do so, if they could. There are still plenty of haters of Torah around in high places – including senior staff of the IDF – although their numbers keep on decreasing. And it does not mean that the intentions of those who pushed for a Supreme Court ruling on the draft were noble, even in their own minds. Decidedly not so. Their chief motivation was to bring down the coalition government, by getting charedim to walk out. They may dislike charedim, but they hate Bibi.
Knowing the intentions of the political figures calling for the draft of charedim had nothing to do, however, with the demands and frustrations of the rest of the citizens of the country. Pointing a finger at the left and its machinations does not change the fact that the country is fed up with a population that, in their eyes, sees itself as a group apart from the rest of the nation. Especially in the Dati Leumi community that has suffered a disproportionate number of soldier fatalities, the rage is palpable. Why should their husbands and sons go off to battle, often not to return, while tens of thousands of charedim stand off to the sides? Why should their men be pulled from the beis medrash, so that charedim can remain in theirs? Why should their women have to sustain their households alone while their spouses serve for months (and whose term of service is now being lengthened) so that charedim should not have to take any chances of compromising their life style of insisting on lechatchila choices? Dying on the front is also not a lechatchila! Telling charedim about a war against Torah frees them from having to confront these questions. If there is a war against Torah, there can only be one response. Resist!
Ironically, as Israeli citizens moved to greater unity and tolerance of each other – as shown by a recent Pew poll – they heard about the many charedim who have done incredible things to support the chayalim. Israelis have learned to like charedim, but to detest charedism. So much of this could have been avoided had leadership from time to time sent messages of explanation, support, and genuine love and concern to the other citizens of the country, insisting that they were genuinely interested in a solution, instead of acting like an entitled elitist group.
There is no war against Torah. There is, however, an assault on both nuance and accuracy. We have been using language for effect, to stimulate adrenalin, rather than to share facts. Some people accept it this as just a cultural norm, and internally translate overheated rhetoric into room temperature arguments. But we can see that this is not working. Too many, when all they hear are hyperbolic slogans, take those slogans at face value. They come to believe them, and act on them, shutting down highways, pelting army officers in their neighborhoods. Or worse. And still others – especially Anglos – find this way of speaking demeaning and patronizing.
We’ve been there before. As we approach the Three Weeks, we should recall the words of the Netziv in his Pesichah to Bereishis. The sinas chinam at the time of the churban, he writes, manifested itself in the way people reacted to the slightest deviation from what they thought was appropriate. They exaggerated, they turned up the volume, and yelled, “Heretic! Apikorus!” This led, he says, to bloodshed, sometimes figuratively, sometimes literally.
You’d think we would have gotten it right by now.
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Want to hear more? Check out Two Rabbis, Three Opinions, the podcast that I cohost with Rabbi Simi Lerner. The latest episode deals with this topic.
Especially in the Dati Leumi community that has suffered a disproportionate number of soldier fatalities, the rage is palpable. Why should their husbands and sons go off to battle, often not to return, while tens of thousands of charedim stand off to the sides?
No one in the Chareidi world is forcing them to choose the former option. The Chareidi world would not protest if they also remained in the Beis Medrash en masse instead of going out to fight. It would not complain if they made an issue of why they had disproportionate number of soldier fatalities either. It is only the Chareidim (not the Israeli Arabs of course ) who are being told that they need to change their passionately held way of life to do army service.
To address the resentment of those who serve over those who don’t there should be more government benefits only available for those who served and there should be more incentives for those who normally wouldn’t enlist to do so. Anything else will only end in disaster. And despite the motive is in fact a war on their way of life.
>No one in the Chareidi world is forcing them to choose the former option. The Chareidi world would not protest if they also remained in the Beis Medrash en masse instead of going out to fight. It would not complain if they made an issue of why they had disproportionate number of soldier fatalities either.
In other words – its not our problem if you want to be freier! Be like us and abandon your fellow Jews to be slaughtered in the streets. Great argument!
>It is only the Chareidim (not the Israeli Arabs of course ) who are being told that they need to change their passionately held way of life to do army service.
So… the Chareidim want to be seen as a foreign element with no essential connection to the rest of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael as the Arabs are? Don’t complain when you are treated as such then.
And if, as some say, that the chareidi community is not (and need not be) actual citizens of Medinat Yisrael and that it is anti-Torah institution, etc., what right do they have to demand financial support for Torah institutions? Do they demand the governments of France, the UK, and the US to support Torah institutions?
Before the Chareidim were supposed to be shevet levi; now we are supposed to treat them like Arabs?
Finally:
Where are all those who were here defending the draft exemption for Torah learners now that it has become clear that the community leaders don’t actually care about that at all and insist that anyone who wears a black suit and hat must also be exempted even if they are working? Do we now say that anyone wearing a chariedi uniform is a member of shevet levi too?
Joe:
>No one in the Chareidi world is forcing them to choose the former option.
You are correct with your assertion. And there are a few reasons for that:
The Chareidi world is pretty much unaware that there is such a group that is Dati Leumi. The insulation over the past couple of generations has been effective in that regard. The result is that they have no family members or social friends who are DL.
The DL community is “forced” by two values. First, is the sense of responsibility to Am Yisrael and its protection and the realization that no one else has our back right now. Second, the DL are “forced” by the Torah itself to be in the IDF. In a Milchemes Mitzvah, it’s all-hands-on-deck and no one is exempt. Some in the Chareidi world engage in Halachic gaslighting and can’t bring themselves to stipulate the obvious Milchemes Mitzvah here. I heard one such Rabbi interviewed on a podcast who stated that the Chareidi community owns the right to declare a Milchemes Mitzvah. And furthermore that they have no one in our generation who qualifies to make that call, mentioning the names of a couple of deceased Gedolim of 2 generations ago who would have those broad shoulders. Combine that with their expertise in manpower requirements of the IDF, and the status quo continues.
You are mistaking me for Schmerel whose comment I was quoting. My response to that was “In other words – its not our problem if you want to be freier! Be like us and abandon your fellow Jews to be slaughtered in the streets. Great argument!”
The Chareidi world might not protest if all the DL Hesder students didn’t enlist because they do not see the army’s manpower shortage as impacting their own lives. They don’t seem particularly concerned regarding the lives of others. The DL position is to care about protecting everyone.
What would happen if the army would say “OK, we don’t have enough soldiers to man the Iron Dome over Bnei Brak”? I would imagine that then there would be an outcry.
There was an outcry from the Beitar residents that they needed IDF protection from the hateful residents from surrounding Arab villages. The IDF responded, It is a time of war and there are no soldiers to spare…. Figure it out!!!! & they did by establishing the first only Charedi Security Squad.
CV May, Beitar has always had soldiers guarding it.
Beitar was always protected by IDF soldiers except currently with a dire war up north & down south, the regular squad is not available THEREFORE a Charedi security group was trained!!!
” The Chareidi world would not protest if they also remained in the Beis Medrash en masse”
It was a UTJ MK who called for the early enlistment of Dati Leumi Torah students
>>>there should be more government benefits only available for those who served
—- makes more sense the other way. an extension of what is starting now i e no financial support for institutions or individuals , for communities not ‘committed’. maybe they should consider a separate ‘permanent resident’ option , like a non-citizen. no voting or welfare benefits, and no obligations either….
WADR, the very existense of the Israeli court system, headed by the Supreme Court. is a war against Torah.
The State of Israel was never intended to be a halakhic state only a Jewish (and democratic) state. In Messianic times (in achrit not reishii tzimichat geulatainu) the situation will improve.
You have contradicted yourself. How can a state be a “Jewish” State if it rejects Halacha? The jewish character of a state (or anything else) can only be measured by how closely it follows Torah and Halacha.
Yosef,
Your assertion is incorrect from numerous perspectives. First, halakhically, a Jew who has sinned remains a Jew. Second, philosophically, as the Rav ztl explained, brit avot is broader than brit sinai. Jews are referred to as descendants of the avot, not those present at matan torah. Third, linguistically, usage of the term Jewish is broader than the term halakhic.
William Gewirtz: Reply to your reply
1. I did NOT say anything about Jews. Your point about a Jew who sins remaining a Jew is true. But I was not talking about Israelis. I was talking about a politicial institution called the State of Israel. One cannot claim that an institution can be “Jewish” without holding to Halachah and Torah. The point about Brit Avos and Bris Sinai is also not on point; technically speaking the Avos were not “jewish”. The Jewish nation was constituted after Matan Torah (when they all went through a “geirus”).
2. If the term “Jewish” is going to be extended beyond it’s halachic applicability, then where will you draw the line? What constitutes “Jewish” even under an expanded understanding of that term? If “Jewish” defines something, then there must be limits; otherwise it could apply to anything and the term would, therefore, be meaningless.
Yosef, your POV has gone from incorrect to absurd. First, you claim that the avot were not Jewish is “interesting” but preposterous. Second, you ask if Jewish is not equivalent to halakhic, what defines the boundaries around the term “Jewish?” The answer is trivial to any traditional Jew – halakha defines the boundaries.
Third, a personal suggestion. If you are in a hole and you want to get out, first stop digging.
AOC is Appellation d’Origine Contrôlée. And we like them.
As for liking Cheredim more, I’m guessing much is owed to Chabad for this change.
Good guess, but no cigar. While there are areas of Jewish service in which Chabad not only excels, but is the only act out there, this was not the case in this instance. They were there, to be sure. But lots of others were there in force as well.
One must give a huge Yasher Koach to the efforts of R Dovid Gottllieb of RBS and Tzalash and R Rimon who have done amazing work in helping with the religious needs of the Chayalim and in creating a sense of Achdus in the IDF. Their efforts plus the efforts of R J Friedman in supplying Tefilin to Chayalim and the increased interest in Yiddishkeit which was a direct result of the events of 10/7 cannot be praised enough.
There is a second issue, one that Rav Aharon Lichtenstein ZT”L raised in another context decades ago. The Jewish community has limited assets; spending excessively in one area negatively impacts spending in other areas. The context he was addressing was resources expended on hashgaha well beyond the requirements of halakha and its impact on priorities in the area of education. In the current context, the expenditure on kollel, particularly when supported for well beyond just the limited number of metzuyanim is impacting other areas of necessary education.
I’d extend the application of RAL ZT”L to not only direct expenditures but impact of increased costs to Jews by chumrot. Kosher USA by Roger Horowitz discusses the decision of the OU to no longer give hashgacha on regular shechita but only on Glatt kosher. That changed the entire kosher meat industry and instead of IIRC being an adjunct to general large meatpackers in the US, became the business of a specialty kosher producer. As a result, price of meat was much higher for consumers, supply went down and although glstt kosher meat consumption went up, total kosher meat consumption went down drastically. FWIW the hashgacha of RYBS in Boston was plain kosher NOT Glatt.
if the haredi community’s gevirim in USA will have to start supporting their israeli brethren to the tune of 100s of millions a year , that will perforce change their spending patterns in US…
The soundbites of “war on Torah” and “Torah protects”, play well in the weaponizing and militarizing the narrative of the Chareidim to be on-par with the IDF. It’s also great for fundraising. The pashkevilim-worthy phrases deflect attention away from the two elephants in the room. They are the selfishness of wanting to have their cake and eat it too and no IDF or National Service for anyone who identifies as Chareidi. They obviously live an alternative universe from the rest of Israel, especially the Hesder Talmidim and Dati Leumi community. Instead of wrapping their heads around those who don’t fit with their rhetoric, they just ignore them and scream louder.
What is particularly troubling is that this negative attitude to Medinat Yisrael and Tzahal which had previously been limited to Satmar, NK, and Peleg, has been normalized and become mainstream since October 7. And that unfortunately includes many among the American Yeshivish. While in America, they might be a bit more aware of the plight of the Hostages and Chayalim on an information level, they have been fed that the “eis tzara l’Yaakov” applies just as much as a sakana for the Chareidim. This attitude has been conveyed in shuls, Battei Medrish, and mainstream weekly shrink-wrapped publications. The prevalent model for the narrative is binary. There is the “Olam HaTorah”, and everyone else who is out to get them and assault their way of life.
And then there is the chevra among the products of the American Yeshivos who recognize all of this. They are subjected to all of the rhetoric and read about it in the same weekly publications with the interspersed ads of conspicuous consumption of luxury vacations, food, and expensive real estate. However, they were informed in a different Yeshiva World era with different Rabbeim and Roshei Yeshiva. Now, they find themselves “Hashkafically homeless”, as many in the current leadership of their alma maters have gone “off the rails” and are either extreme or apathetic. That goes against the more reasonable sentiments of empathy and support that one would expect from Klal Yisrael in a time like this. Furthermore, they have to deal with the fact that their children who are being nurtured in those same Yeshivos are not being infused with the basic values of Yiddishkeit. So, the monthly tuition and support checks they are making out might very well be against their better judgment.
You would be hard pressed to find a better way to recruit for the mainstream Chariedi joining the Neturey Karta than a forced draft of Yeshiva Bochurim
that ought to make their allegiances clearer.
Yes, that is a truism, many ppl are finding themselves “haskeficly homeless”, born & raised in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s under normative Torah leadership.
Re. the felicitous term “hashkafically homeless,” it seems to have first been used by R. Dovid Bashevkin, who tweeted about a friend who texted him on the bus ride back from the Washington rally this November that he felt “hashkafically homeless.” Rabbi Bashevkin observed that this person is not alone. In a podcast following the rally, R. Bashvekin elaborated on the metaphor and suggested solutions for the hashkafically homeless, one of which was:
“Know number three, that it is possible to even find a home after many years of not finding a community that perfectly aligns with you. Maybe it does exist, maybe it doesn’t. Some live without it, some live with it. Some change communities, some find new neighborhoods, some rent short-term rentals. But whatever it is, there is a way forward for all of us because this moment is so much bigger than any individual.”
https://18forty.org/podcast/the-opportunity-and-difficulty-of-unity-on-the-israel-march/
In this past week’s Jewish Press, Rabbi Yehuda Oppenheimer also used the term “hashkafic home” in the same sense and refers to a middle group(“MG”): “Why must I choose to either be dati–leumi or charedi? Why have people like me been left bereft of a hashkafic home when we are just trying to live Torah lives based on the chinuch we received in the MG of old? If only there were a different group that I could be publicly associated with!”
R. Oppenheimer further writes that “…I daresay that there are, at the very least, tens of thousands of people who feel hashkafically similar to me, both in Israel and the Diaspora, whether or not they say it out loud. While this has long troubled me and many others, we have somehow made our peace with it. Nevertheless, current events have shown the vital need for people to speak out…” He also notes that “In the 1960s and 70s, my family and I were not considered charedi – we had never heard the term.”
https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/front-page/a-time-for-new-thinking-in-the-charedi-world-part-ii/2024/07/25/
Shades of Gray:
It was in fact Rabbi Dovid Bashevkin’s podcast where I heard that term. So, I should have cited him. And I did read Rabbi Oppenheimer’s article of a similar theme. Thank you for pointing those sources out.
Another part of this sugya is that many individuals feel orphaned as well. That is orphaned from the once rich and precise mesoros of the Yeshivos in which they learned. Many of the mainstream Yeshivos have had a changing of the guard, some more recently than others, which have severed the Yeshiva’s derech, legacy, and traditions of their founders and notable Roshei Yeshiva of a couple of generations ago. So, the principle of Yiftach b’doro k’Shmuel b’doro is somehow not all that comforting to me at this time.
Infantile, crude, and inflammatory language has been the stock-in-trade for Chareidim for decades now. Perhaps a sociologist can explain why their leadership can’t communicate intelligently and insightfully – at least maybe on the level of the editorial section of a small-town newspaper? Is that too much to ask from a nation that is supposedly an “am chacham v’navon”??
Maybe this is what you get when you’ve spent the last century-and-a-half devaluing chochma and derech eretz (in the Hirschian sense).
(Incidentally, AOC has shown a glimmer on sanity over the past couple weeks. https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-socialist-group-pulls-backing-for-aoc-after-she-hosts-panel-on-antisemitism/)
Two questions: (1) Is it not likely that, if anything may lead to an actual “war on Torah”, it is the unfortunate, newsmaking public conduct of certain Chareidi community members and the Chareidi leaders publicly encouraging violation of Israeli draft laws? (2) Even more perplexing, how is it that leaders of such stature do not recognize that risk?
What’s particularly troubling to me is how the conspiracy theories (previously relegated to pashkevilim) have now become totally mainstream in the Yeshiva World. More than that, we’ve seen apparent Talmidei Chachamim who have resorted to downright shekker as a means to a desired end. Secondly, the mainstream Yeshiva World askonim have now signed onto the fundraising event tomorrow night. That sky-is-falling forum will continue to perpetuate the shekker, only in a louder volume, to guilt the crowd into giving more.
A wise and discerning essay.
Thank You.
Nuance and accurracy appear to be in short order among those who oppose any change in the status quo. For far more nuanced and accurate views see here https://vinnews.com/2024/07/09/powerful-video-rabbi-osher-weisss-emotional-exchange-with-triple-amputee-soldier/, ,here https://iyun.org.il/en/sedersheni/haredi-idf-service-its-up-to-us/ and https://vinnews.com/2024/07/18/spiritual-rules-for-new-charedi-brigade-being-formulated-by-rabbi-leibel-and-idf/ Like it or not the sudden calls for giving into a one sided ceasefire on the basis of Pikuach Nefesh, which many Gdolei Talmidie Chachamim question the applicability of in wartime, especially when the IDF has reduced the military capability of Hamas, based on the words of Minchas Chinuch and other Rishonim and Acharonim as opposed to ransom in a medieval times, unfortunately cannot be divorced from the stance on the deferment issue.
The real issue remains what would the residents of a Charedi community say or do if Hamas RL showed up on their doorsteps ala 10/7 and proceeded to do what they did on that day? We know from the history of the 1929 massacre in Chevron and the battle for the Old City of Jerusalem in 1948 that no mercy was extended to the talmidim of the Chevron Yeshiva and all aspects of Jewish life in the Old City, so the notion that the Arabs would tolerate the existence of the Charedi communities purely because they were not Zionist borders on fantasy.
We need statements about the imortance of Ahavas Yisrael Instead of statements that threaten mass exodus or call the IDF a Makon Tumah and Kefirah, and placards about the so called Issur Gamar to enliist. We need Ahavas Yisrael both from the IDF in its genuine interest in Charedi enlistment, as well as in a full scale analysis of its mistaken pre 10/7 strategy of a snaller and smarter IDF which was reliant on high tech, and its genuine interest in accomodating Charedi and indeed Halachic needs of all soldiers re Kashrus, Shabbos and Tznius-the recent events in Bethel Pa, and the failure of female Secret service Agents should at least be a source of discussion as to whether full integration of the genders is a desirable military goal, and from the Charedi world in appreciating the fact that defending EY , whether one likes the government is a shared common responsibility that should lead every bachur to engage in a Cheshbon HaNefesh as to whether he can better be an Oved HaShem-in the IDF or the Beis Medrash.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/18/national-religious-recruits-challenge-values-of-idf-secular-eliteSee t this article from a very unlikely source as to the dificulties faced by and the glass ceiling for IDF officers from the Hesder world-this is all part of the nuance and accuracy that is required but missing from current statements which are inflammatory in nature and unfortunately far too divorced from reality
Kudos to Rabbi Adlerstein for speaking the unvarnished truth! For decades I’ve been decrying the vitriolic and incendiary rhetoric typically used by chareidi politicians against their adversaries. With your permission, I will copy the letter I sent to the head of Agudath Israel precisely on this topic:
Max Eisenhardt
Fri, Jun 28, 4:37 PM
to ashafran
Dear Rabbi Shafran,
I wanted to wish all of you a big Yashar Koach on the Israeli Supreme Court’s decision against preferential treatment for yeshivas and unabated financial support. Because in all honesty, how long did you think that the Israeli public would be taken for a fool by the chareidi leadership?
How could you claim in the chareidi media outlets that the chareidi yeshiva bochurim are supporting Israel and learning for the zechus of the Israeli soldiers, and in the very next article you spit on Zionism with all sorts of nasty accusations about how they cut the payos off the Yemenites, how they built anti-religious kibbutzim that eat pigs and rabbits, that they let 800,000 Hungarian Jews be slaughtered by the Nazis instead of rescuing them in exchange for 10,000 trucks, how Reb Elchonon Wasserman and the Brisker Rav were right, etc.. (which may or may not be true, but that’s irrelevant)??
You didn’t think we noticed the doublespeak in the chareidi press?? How you were trying to dance at two chasunas? The bigger irony is that trying to be פוסח על שני הסעיפים is exactly what the most prominent chareidi spokesman such as Rabbi Moshe Meiselman (in his book Torah Chazal and Science, page xx) accuse the Modern Orthodox crowd of doing!!
And do you think we owe the chareidi yeshiva world gratitude because תורה מגנא ומצלא? Then why is it that the real heroes of the yeshiva world never demanded kavod and payment for themselves? Amazing individuals such as Sarah Schnierer, Rabbi Rosenberger the shaatnez man, Rabbi Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz, Rabbi Moshe Sherer זצ”ל, all of whom were moser nefesh to help build the magnificent Torah institutions that we benefit from today?
Those very heros that we all admire eschewed honor and royalty payments and ran away from kavod. And now the chareidi Torah world DEMANDS that I honor them and pay them and is shocked to the core when we eventually refuse??
And one more thing: If the chareidi askonim pull off their typical shenanigans by responding with a massive protest and bring over 300,000 kollel knuckleheads to protest in Jerusalem in the middle of the day, all that rational people like myself will take it as is:
a – they can protest in the middle of the day because they don’t have real jobs:
b – they don’t use birth control 😆
There is much more to say on the matter, but I’ll leave it at that.
Max: Thank you for that sharp letter that fleshed out what many of us have been thinking. Your point of previous generation’s Askonim not expecting anything in return by way of finances or kavod is a solid observation.
Two points:
(1) Rabbi Shafran is not the “head” of the Agudah. That would be either the Moetzes or the lay leadership. Rabbi Shafran is a writer who has been a spokesperson in the past, but it’s unclear as to what his job description is. But, either way, he is not high on the Agudah’s depth chart.
(2) On your last point, Ma nafshach. If Torah indeed protects, then the mass protests (which seem to always morph into riots quite quickly) are taking all of those learners off of the “front lines”. And if these rioters are incapable of learning, then they are incapable of providing the protection that is ostensibly worthy of the IDF exemptions.
As a wise and discerning people, we ought to be able to distinguish truth from hyperbole or untruth, but we’re biased according to our personal or group situations. Others know how to play our emotions like a fiddle to prevent clear thought. As a longtime Mets fan, I’m very aware of the irrational power of allegiance in the face of contrary facts. I think one sobering message of Parashat Haazinu is that we first “have” to exhaust all ways to mess things up, and even to approach rock bottom, before we see that blazing light at the end of the tunnel.
I address this to Rav Adlerstein:
Overall, how much do today’s noncombatants in Israel value the service of today’s combatants? Do they accept in principle that the current Medinat Yisrael, for all its lack of perfection, deserves to be physically defended by Jews, even while they themselves pursue a different life task?
Like most Big Questions, we suffer from a lack of real data. So all I can give you is impressions. I believe that the vast majority do believe that a large majority do believe that the Jewish Yishuv (not necessarily the Jewish State) needs to be physically defended by Jews. But decades of indoctrination have taken their toll, and there are vocal rabbonim, educators, and ordinary people who believe that the entire enterprise of a Jewish State is treif; that there would be peaceful coexistence with Arabs if not for the evil machinations of the illegal Zionist government; that no secular authority has the right to commit Jewish lives to a battlefield. Not sure that they will ever change
Which religious parties in that government have any agenda for the nation as a whole whatsoever?
I think Smotrich’s has, and so does Shas
“a large majority do believe that the Jewish Yishuv needs to be physically defended by Jews.”
I’m sorry, but if we’re going by impressions, mine is that the vast majority don’t even think about it enough to hold that belief.
How do they respond to Avot 3:2 and Jeremiah 29:7?
For further nuance into draft dodging in general see here https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/haredim-arent-israels-only-draft-dodgers/
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/hasidic-pragmatism/ See here as well re how Chasidic leaders are dealing with the draft issue
See here https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecturedata/1103905/NSCY-Kollel:-Sefer-HaMitzvos-#1Intro re draft dodging from all sectors as to what it costs the IDF
Note – please confirm the name attached to this should be Micah Segelman – autofill accidentally added my wife’s name to my earlier comment and that should not be published.
Rabbi Adlerstein, With respect I would like to push back on being so dismissive of the idea that Trump is a fascist. Casey Michel in the Bulwark wrote an excellent review of Federico Finchelstein’s “The Wannabe Fascists” called “Trump Meets Three of the Four Criteria for Fascism.” His 4 criteria are political violence, propaganda, xenophobia, and ultimate dictatorship. Trump checks the first 3 boxes and has given good reason to believe he aims to check the 4th. In no way is he or am I calling for any violence – but I am arguing we should be honest about what Trump has done and may very well be seeking to do.
He has given good reason? How? He’s limited to two terms by the Constitution.
Political violence? When has he engaged in that? (The man was just shot, for God’s sake.)
Propaganda? Every political party engages in that.
Xenophobia? How? The man is *married* to an immigrant.
I’m sorry, that is all ridiculous on its face. But even more so: The definition of “fascism” is harnessing all aspects of society, government and private, to serve the state. You can accuse Trump of anything you want (and bear in mind that the Bulwark was *founded* to be anti-Trump), but you can’t accuse him of that. If anything, it’s what certain elements opposed to him want.
To a communist, every opponent is really a fascist. This is the main engine driving factually absurd claims about Trump, that way too many others take at face value. If a blatant lie has enough utility, media will spray us with it non-stop.
Proof please?
Political violence? It was the current administration that leveraged the George Floyd riots to their benefit and it’s the current administration that refuses to examine the riot at the Pico shul. It might be too early to get into the AR-15 gunman on the sloped roof, but I’m forecasting it’s only going to get more interesting.
After reading the article and the comments section I am somewhat baffled. The article took Chareidim to task for inflammatory rhetoric toward their fellow Jews. The writer made many valid points. Then I began reading the comments section. Most (not all) of the comments contain inflammatory rhetoric aimed at Chareidim. If we are truly concerned about sinas chinam, I’d propose that temperatures need to be lowered on both sides. Let’s be consistent.
Nachum, I don’t suspect this conversation will be more productive than the typical pro vs anti Trump discussion. But nonethelss I’ll comment on one point – political violence. Let’s assume that Joe Biden would have lost the election. And assume he would’ve called on his supporters to come to a Stop the Steal rally on Janury 6th, and given a passionate speech inciting them and telling them that they should fight and that he tried to intimidate Mike Pence into not certifying the election. And that his leftist, anti-Israel supporters would’ve then gone on to storm the Capitol, cause multiple deaths and many injuries including assaulting police officers, and threaten the life of Mike Pence, and that Joe Biden then praised them and refused to intervene to stop them for hours. Then Biden continued to praise them as “hostages” and “unbelievable patriots” and talked about using his power to pardon them. Are you sure you’d be defending Joe Biden against my claim that he engaged in political violence?
They should all be pardoned. They are being treated terribly.
“cause multiple deaths”
See, that’s a lie. Exactly *one* death occured, and it was a protester shot by a cop.
Nachum – please don’t use harsh words like “lie.” They don’t contribute to actual dialogue, and they are not accurate. In terms of the facts, in addition to Ashli Babbitt, please google the deaths law enforcement officers soon after Jan 6th (several by suicide due to the trauma caused on Jan 6th). For example, read about the deaths of Howard Liebengood and Jeffrey Smith. And you didn’t answer my question. If it was Joe Biden doing all of this and the mob supporting him were pro-Hamas, would you be defending Joe Biden?
Since Biden has been president, the so called resistance has picketed the homes and threatened the life of a member of SCOTUS and has been part of the anti American and anti Semitic pro Hamas riots all over the US. None of these individuals have been arrested, tried , convicted and sentenced to the draconian sentences imposed on the 1/6/21 demonstrators
For the $107M goal that this fundraising campaign has taken on to fight this War Against Torah, for which people in America were guilted into giving, who exactly will be the Gabbai Tzedakah over this “mammon hekdesh”? Will those funds go to basic living expenses for Avreichim, general operating support for the Yeshivos, Bein Hazemanim “breaks” after Tisha B’Av for overwhelmed bochurim, to recoup the production costs of the two recent fundraisers, Thursday night cholent and potato kugel, or business class tickets for RY to fundraise in America in the future? Somehow, I see the transparency of all of this being as clear as the men’s mikvah late in the day on Erev Rosh Hashana. Let the buyer beware.
It’s comments like these that have turned many away from this blog.
@mapquest – yes, but evidently it also rouses some rabble TO this blog. Perhaps it’s a topic for RYA to ponder; if certain content inevitably results in these types of comments, and do these types of comments alter this blog’s original mission into a hate site.
Sam -thank you for that well-needed reality check. It’s quite unfortunate that RYA has recently penned so many articles, whatever the intention, but which inevitably result in Pavlovian Charedi-bashing.
I think readers can be trusted enough to take any commenter’s ranting with a grain of salt. No one should self-censor when the message is, or could be, important enough.
I feel for the daati leumi community that still believes that the existence of the medina is a mitzvah along with serving in its army. It’s simply one fallacy that breeds the other. The Torah has 613 mitzvos. The DL has en extra Avoda Zara called medinat yisrael. They are willing to have their children sacrifice many mitzvos on the altar of this pagan idol. It’s a sad tragedy.
Do we have any clue as to how the non-Leumi religious Jews would run Eretz Yisrael given a chance to replace the Medina? Their efforts in government have mostly been limited to self-protection. What broader policies would they champion for all the people? Let’s think of this as an interim strategy until Mashiach arrives.
Please avoid Yeshivas Mir as Rav Chaim Shmulevitz famously said…
“One who doesn’t have hakoras hatov, appreciation of the IDF soldiers, has no
place in my Bais Medrash!”
This is from the same gadol who, as a matter of principle, would never send a bachur out of his yeshiva, no matter what!
Please keep the “Two Rabbis” podcasts coming. They provide an important and balanced perspective not just for Anglo-Charedim in Israel, but for those elsewhere as well.
The fact that there is a “rage[which] is palpable ” amongst the Dati Leumi community is tragic. Hopefully, there can be some healing after the situation normalizes. Notably, there have been some respectful discussions of the Charedi draft question coming from rabbonim of the DL world. Besides Rav Yitzchak Sheilat’s “Open Letter to Charedi Brothers” posted previously on Cross Currents, I found these examples.
R. Reuven Taragin, educational director of World Mizrachi and the RZA, wrote an article this May in which, in general, he speaks about respecting the Charedi way of life and that “though one may strongly disagree with their assumptions and opinions, a conversation meant to influence them needs to adopt their beliefs. To convince the Chareidi community to draft, our arguments must make sense to them and work with their principles.” Substantively, he says that “the answer lies in focusing on the significant segment of the Chareidi community that is not learning Torah, at least not full-time,” creating and strengthening Chareidi-appropriate draft frameworks, and inviting Chareidim to play a more prominent role in the army, state, and Israeli society.”
https://www.5tjt.com/the-chareidi-draft-crisis/
R. Tamir Granot, Rosh Yeshivat Orot Shaul in Tel Aviv and father of Amitai z”l who was killed in the early days of the war, had a recent post, “A Way Forward on Haredi Draft,” in Tradition Online. Notably, R. Granot, who also previously responded to Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef’s remarks and spoke recently at a hearing of the Foreign Affairs and Security Committee in the Knesset about the Charedi draft, has a deep acquaintance with some Haredi leaders and its common members and is optimistic for a common shared future, as he writes in the essay’s end. In the article, he offers thoughts about why it’s so hard for different sides to even find a common framework in which to argue—and offers a suggestion for a way forward to a common future. R. Granot begins with a story of a meeting between R. Yehuda Amital zt’l and R. Elazar Shach zt”l which illustrates the difficulty in dialogue. About 40 years later, when the two saw each other again, Rav Shach said to Rav Amital: “Yehuda, you know, we can no longer argue. We’ve grown too far apart.”
https://traditiononline.org/a-way-forward-on-haredi-draft/
R. Moshe Hauer wrote earlier this month that “when enemies surround us from all sides, we must not attack each other.” He says “there is a genuine internal crisis in Israel over finding the way forward on the haredi enlistment issue… Neither side may cavalierly dismiss the concerns of the other. Many – though certainly not all – of the leaders and decision makers on both sides, including Gedolei Yisrael and army leaders, are working diligently to find ways to include haredim in the material efforts for Israel’s defense in a manner that respects and preserves their haredi way of life and that does not force enlistment of those who are Toraso Umnaso, full-time yeshiva students. Both sides understand that this issue can no longer be kicked down the road and that they must acknowledge the problems and work together quietly and productively to address them.”
https://www.ou.org/this-erev-shabbos-am-yisraels-response-to-crisis/
It is interesting to consider the current criticism of R. Dovid Leibel’s effort to integrate Charedim in light of R. Moshe Hauer’s letter earlier this month. See the criticism of R. Leibel in today’s VIN article:
https://vinnews.com/2024/07/30/gedolim-attack-rabbi-leibels-idf-initiative-a-danger-to-the-future-of-the-torah-world/
R. Hauer, on the other hand, wrote in his letter regarding Erev Shabbos Parshas Chukas:
“Many – though certainly not all – of the leaders and decision makers on both sides, including Gedolei Yisrael and army leaders, are working diligently to find ways to include haredim in the material efforts for Israel’s defense in a manner that respects and preserves their haredi way of life and that does not force enlistment of those who are Toraso Umnaso, full-time yeshiva students.”
https://www.ou.org/this-erev-shabbos-am-yisraels-response-to-crisis/
I would point out a few things:
1 – The Gedolim who criticized R. Leibel are not the same Gedolim concerning whom R. Hauer says are “working diligently to find ways to include haredim in the material efforts for Israel’s defense.”
2 – Notwithstanding that the Gedolim appear to be digging in their heels in light of the Supreme Court cutting off funds over the draft issue, one can hope that there will be a natural, organic process towards greater integration of Charedim in Israel society, as the Charedi community, driven by the bottom-up needs of its diverse members, evolves and requires more Torah im Derech Eretz.
3 – We see that, in theory, the Charedi community can indeed participate in Israel’s defense, as there were prior letters from Rav Shach, the Steipler, Rav Yechezkel Abramsky and R. Aharon Leib Steinman stating that non-learners should serve in the army, even referring to such people evading service as “rodfim” of those yeshiva students who study Torah diligently!(see letters linked in comment section of R. Yehoshua Pfeffer’s “Charedi Army Service: A Matter of Jewish Belonging”, Tzarich Iyun, 3/24). Similarly, in the early days of statehood, the Charedi community enthusiastically took up arms in defense of the nascent Jewish state(see “The forgotten fighters: Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel’s War of Independence”, Israel Hayom, 7/7/24).
Dr E wrote in relevant part:
“I heard one such Rabbi interviewed on a podcast who stated that the Chareidi community owns the right to declare a Milchemes Mitzvah. And furthermore that they have no one in our generation who qualifies to make that call, mentioning the names of a couple of deceased Gedolim of 2 generations ago who would have those broad shoulders”
Just curious-did the rabbi who was interviewed provide any sources in Shas, Rishonim, Acharonim or Mesorah for such an assertion or was the same made without reference to the same?
Steve: If I recall correctly, any sources that were offered were cherry-picked and therefore we taken out-of-context. Some were manipulated to fit the current kitzoni narrative (e.g., “Shevet Levi”). The sloppy lomdus employed would never have been tolerated in any normative Yeshiva Beis Medrish before recently.
R Zevin in Lor Hahalacha wrote as follows:
” In our days, wherein we merited the establishment of the independent State of Israel, freed from the burden of other governments and the servitude of the exile, it is clear that the War of Independence had all of the pertinent laws of milchemet mitzvah, as well as its very obligation.”
Well well. As one of the resident Charedi defenders, I figured I’d sit this one out and see how things develop. So far, things seem be following the usual path with all the usual commenters standing by their positions and displaying abundant ahavas yisroel and tolerance for the “other.”
I certainly appreciate the position of Rabbi Adlerstein and some of the more nuanced commenters here, and apologies to those who provided endless links and copy-pastes from elsewhere for not having the time or interest to pursue those leads. In case anyone is interested in another perspective, however, I’d strongly urge you to speak with someone who isn’t firmly in the MO camp and has explored the Charedi perspective with an open mind.
I know with certainty that if I had the energy to make the case (which I don’t), I’d have to plenty to say and not just as a refutation, but from another perspective. IOW, there’s much more to the Charedi position than the points that were used here to frame the discussion and their position is far more nuanced and sophisticated.
Additionally, and this may come as a surprise to anyone who has never experienced the abundant chessed that flows from within the Charedi community, the Charedi position in this matter does not stem from a disregard for our fellow Jews. The fact that 95% of all national chessed projects are initiated by, and funded by Charedim, should dispel that notion to any fair minded individual. (FTR – if you wish to dispute this point about them being Charedi, please provide examples of an MO Bonei Olam, A-Time, Bikkur Cholim, Hatzalah, Chaverim… Are there MO chessed orgs? Of course. But there’s simply no comparison.)
Anyhow, nice to see everyone again.
All the best.
David
Is there only one Chareidi position? Wouldn’t some free internal discussion be helpful?
David, you are correct that the Chareidi world deserves admiration for its chessed organizations. but where is their chessed when its leaders can’t bring themselves to say “daven for the soldiers”? Rather they tap dance and say daven “that no Jew gets killed”.
Where is their kindness when they can’t admire the mesiras nefesh of the soldiers to defend Klall Yisrael, especially the Dati L’eumi Bnei Torah who seize every possible free minute to get back to their learning?
Where is their kindness when to them “the Olam Hatorah ” means their Yeshivos, as if there is no serious learning in the Hesder Yeshivos?
Or when they say that everyone who feels that Chareidim, especially if not learning full time, should share the burden, is a “hater of Torah”?
95%? Seriously? You just made that up. Plenty of non-charedim do chessed and set up projects
And of course the biggest provider of such “chesed” is, well, the Israeli taxpayer. Bikkur Cholim is nice, but it doesn’t take the place of actual, you know, *hospitals*. Need I go on?
Sure, here’s one: How many of those charedi projects contribute to actual national defense?
A hospital that escaped your notice:
https://laniadofund.org/en/
David:
I believe that many of the participants of this blog would not have a problem defending the Chareidi position, if we are considering the Chareidi position of the 1980’s. It’s some of the Charedi positions which have emerged more recently which we feel are problematic.
I would say that Medinat Yisrael and the IDF are two enormous chessed organizations in which the MO/DL have been involved. The State has funded Torah learning in the Chareidi world without many strings attached until recently. Secondly, the Hesder students and those in Miluim-nikkim have put their lives and limbs on the line to protect Am Yisrael and allow Chareidim to learn (or not learn and not serve). I’d say that is pretty strong track record of chessed.
For an appreciation of the Chareidi response to the milchemes mitzvah argument from Rabbi Reuven Taragin, Educational Director of World Mizrachi and the RZA, see link to an article(and his sources in footnotes) from this May excerpted below:
“Many of those addressing the Chareidi community are unaware or dismissive of their opinions…An excellent example of this problem is the milchemet mitzvah argument…The debate about Chareidim enlisting has raged for many decades. Over this period, tens of Chareidi poskim have ruled that their community should not enlist. Their rulings include Torah sources that support their position. No one will convince the Chareidi community that their rabbis and poskim (over the past seventy-five years) are wrong.”
https://www.5tjt.com/the-chareidi-draft-crisis/
Of course, R. Taragin himself believes in the Hesder model as an ideal. In another recent article, “An Ideal Jewish Army on a Full Stage,” R. Taragin mentions the Purim skit at the Volozhin Yeshiva, which re-enacted the Torah’s military selection process, whereby all potential soldiers left the stage except the Vilna Gaon and the P’nei Yehoshua, the only two Jews who could meet the spiritual standard. Reflecting on today’s army, R. Taragin writes:
“Baruch Hashem, we are witnessing a revolution in this area. Though no soldier can match the Vilna Gaon’s or P’nei Yehoshua’s piety, we have thousands of IDF soldiers who are both deeply committed to halacha and Jewish values and are genuine talmidei chachamim. Young scholars, many of whom have already finished Shas, serve in the regular standing army, and Roshei Yeshiva and Ramim serve in the reserves…Never before in our history have we had such a significant presence of talmidei chachamim in a Jewish army. If the Volozhyn Purim skit took place today, far more than two people would be left standing on the stage. The stage would be full of many units.”
https://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=172836
For more nuance see https://18forty.org/podcast/yehoshua-pfeffer-israel-army-haredim/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-chief-halevi-meets-visiting-us-centcom-head-gen-michael-kurilla-in-israel/ See the two star genderal with a Kipah Srugah in this picture-That is Kiddush HaShe as opposed to the Chillul HaShem depicted here https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredim-clash-with-police-as-first-draftees-slated-to-report-to-idf-recruitment-office/
To be fair, that’s a full colonel, although as Israel’s full generals are the equivalent to American two-stars, that kind of makes him a two-star, yeah.
You see a *lot* of kippot around these days, everywhere.