Anti-Israeli Hypocrisy, and the Sacredness of Self-Defense

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61 Responses

  1. Nechama Friedman says:

    Really agree here . There is too much apologizing for self defense. I even saw some tweets calling the May 17story a ‘lynch’. Not an attempted lynch of an innocent man. They called his killing of one of his attackers a lynch.

    Someone who saves an innocent life, even his own, should be praised for that. It’s, like you said, heroic.

  2. Mycroft says:

    Don’t disagree with the general tenor of Rabbi Gordimer’s piece. In fairness to quote the Rav on self defense accurately, one must be fair and quote the Rav on his much more dovish beliefs concerning Israel than most current MO. The Rav was in favor of even gang back the Kotel IF it would save one life. He did not take a position if it would be advantageous it was for military/diplomatic experts to decide. The Rav demanded an inquiry when there was a massacre during the 82Lebanon war. The Rav was apprehensive about the consequences of the attack on the Iraqi reactor..

    • dr. bill says:

      while i don’t believe issues of this sort merit the quoting of the Rav ztl, i would not extend the Rav’s “dovish” stances to the circumstances mentioned.  quite the contrary, while i certainly could not be certain, but from the conversations I have had with those with direct contact on these matters, i think Rabbi Gordimer’s viewpoint is largely correct.

      • Mycroft says:

        Dr Bill

        Rabbi Gordimer quoted the Rav on a subject.For balance I quoted the Rav, certainly everyone except for possibly the last quote was one that the Rav was open about. The reactor quote is one that I heard from one who heard that directly from the RAv. Once one quotes the Rav , balance is required otherwise misleading. The Ravs positions may not be the standard for current MO , but the approach is one that was standard fifty years ago. For example Israel has just released cabinet notes from six day war and Mizrachi members were opposed to capturing the Old City.  The only members opposed. RZ was not messianic, the Rav was a RZ pragmatist not messianic,

        i agree that Rabbi Gordimers point is generally correct, I started my 1:11 pm post with such a comment.

        • Steve Brizel says:

          The notes from the security cabinet merely confirmed what Michael Oren depicted in Six Days in June-that Israel waited until the last minute to commence the war, that American efforts to possibly break the blockade stood no chance of gaining Congressional approval especially from  such vocally anti Vietnam war Democrats such as Fullbright, Mansfield and Gore, and even  RFK or Javits because of fears of being entangled in the Middle East while the US was stick in Vietnam and that Israel waited to launch any campaign against Jordan until Jordan had started launching indiscriminately aimed artillery acts against Israel,despite being told to stay out of any conflict and especially within the new city of Jerusalem.The RZ cabinet members were a decided minority against taking any military action to break the Egyptian led blockade which was aided and abetted by the UN. One wonders and shudders what would have happened if they had been running Israel at that time and place. It always is worth rereading Oren’s run up of the failure of diplomacy prior to the outbreak of the war to see how Israel could not count any support from the US, UK or France and how isolated Israel was politically at the dawn of the war, and to realize that such isolation remains intact today as the supporters of the progressive agenda are walking away from any prior support of Israel

        • Steve Brizel says:

          Aside from the viewpoints of RYBS that you mentioned , it should be pointed out that RYBS in numerous shiurim available in print and on line rejected the notion that Israel’s actions in 1967 should be judged by France, the UK or the USSR.

        • Steve Brizel says:

          Only appeasement or messianistic belief in peace in our time can justify any reluctance to invade the Old City when the New City was under artillery attack when Hussein paid the price of his all his alliance with Nasser despite being warned by Israel to stay out of the war. Reciting what the two RZ members of the cabinet thought aids nothing to the discussion. Look at hour weekday Busch of the Amidah before claiming that messianism whether passive or otherwise was not a hope of generations of Jews long before 1948.what happened today was an event that prompted RSZA to have a seudas mitzvah and recite Hallel. Thinking about what might happen if Israel withdrew ignores the fact that invoking pikuach Nefesh as the basis there for requires consultation with military and political leaders who seriously had no axe to grind such as a dream of a possible Nobel Peace prize but rather an awareness of whether any deal would be worth the paper it was written . post Oslo developments clearly demonstrated the folly of land for peace as a strategy.

    • Steve Brizel says:

      Mycroft wrote:

      “The Rav was in favor of even gang back the Kotel IF it would save one life. He did not take a position if it would be advantageous it was for military/diplomatic experts to decide. The Rav demanded an inquiry when there was a massacre during the 82Lebanon war”

      You are correct in what RYBS held in respect to the above -However, in the absence of a real diplomatic partner and military/diplomatic experts without a political axe to grind on the issue-waiting for the same to  develop at the cost of Israeli lives who would be so-called “sacrifices for peace”  and be “advantageous” for the security of Israel almost has a decidedly messianistic perspective as opposed to the demands of the political and military facts on the ground. I have never heard anyone say that RYBS “was apprehensive about the consequences of the attack on the Iraqi reactor”.

      The Rav was apprehensive about the consequences of the attack on the Iraqi reactor..

      • dr. bill says:

        the Rav ztl was not naive enough to believe that people do not ALMOST  ALWAYS have “an axe to grind.”  you will probably never know the positions the Rav took on specific events which paint a pretty complete picture of how he related to Israel’s positions.  While he had great respect for those chosen to lead, he would on occasion express a strong perspective if he felt it was halakhically mandated. there are unfortunately less than a handful of disciples still on this earth who have first-hand knowledge and acted on his behalf.  i often wonder how historians will be able to piece the story together.

        but again his participation ended almost 35 years ago and the threats and opportunities the State of Israel now face have changed.

        • Steve Brizel says:

          “opportunities the State of Israel now face have changed.”

          The  threat of terror remains constant. Hamas which is funded by iran, not the Saudis, etc already rejected the Trump initiative. Viewing the events of 2017 in light of a statement made in the aftermath of the Six Day War strikes me as yet another example of the John Lennon School of Political Science at work.

          • dr. bill says:

            your “quote” omits the word “threat.”  both threats and opportunities have increased significantly.

            the Rav ztl’s statement after the 67 war had halakhic principles that are not time-bound.  circumstances change; halakhic principles do not.

          • Mycroft says:

            The Halachik principles haven’t really changed. In fact disputes of what to do with the territories have not really changed since right after  six day war. Those who are messianic ally inclined tend to always find reasons for territories, those who see Israel as a pragmatic issue, tend to look at issue from normal defense perspective. Read recently released cabinet notes. See of course, how RZ has changed.

        • Steve Brizel says:

          Today, in the US , the primary critique of Israel and the BDS movement is led by the denizens of the academic, cultural and political “progressive” movement.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Obviously the strategy of “land for peace” has not saved Israeli lives and the search for real partners for peace remains as elusive as ever except in the minds and hearts of Arabists and their apologists

        • dr. bill says:

          and me, thank God.  it is odd that those who argue (largely correctly) that the Palestinian problem is manufactured by other arab states, don’t realize that the flip side of the coin is that the solution can also come via other arab states.  that is the basis of what is now afoot.  it deserves a chance by anyone for whom any solution is a desired outcome.

          • Steve Brizel says:

            Talk is cheap especially in the absence of a partner to negotiate and the clearly negative results of land for peace as a modus operandi

        • Mycroft says:

          Dr Bill

          whether you call it a Palestinian problem or an Arab population problem, Israel as a Jewish state has a problem that more than twenty per cent of the population belongs to a group that wishes Israel did not exist. Remember in the US all non Christian population together amounts to six percent. The non Christian population in general is not one that even government officials would refuse to sing the national anthem. In Israel the ArabSupreme Court Justice won’t sing hatikvah.The percentages of Arabs are much higher if one includes areas of the territories

  3. Bob Miller says:

    Despite bombastic statements by the PM and other officials, the enemy too often deters Israel rather than the other way around.

    • Mycroft says:

      Not that the President  is particularly friendly to Israel- despite all the traffic diversions and curtains put up to hide the view of the Kotel as protection for DJT-but Bibi with his bombastic statements over the decades and his clear preference for one political party in the US has caused great damage to Israel. He has lost bipartisan consensus, he has even lost his leverage to criticize DJT by stating he is a great President for Israel.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Mycroft wrote:

        “Bibi with his bombastic statements over the decades and his clear preference for one political party in the US has caused great damage to Israel”

        And those who support Oslo despite the carnage caused thereby,  the progressive agenda and the Iran treaty have not caused great damage to Israel?

        • Mycroft says:

          Those people are not in power in Israel.

          re the Iran treaty, not good for Israel but damage was done when at the end of GWB s reign he refused to attack Iran apparently Cheney was in favor. Without US using its forces back then there is nothing that could be done now except for a US led major operation. A few air strikes won’t do it. Iran learned lesson from Iraq.

          there is a consensus in Israel that a separation of Israel from the dominant population of the Middle East is essential. You go left I’ll go right etc.

          sadly, a lot has changed since Erev Yom Kippur 1973. The neighbors have no fear and the image of Israel has suffered. Look at recent rankings of military strength,according to some individually below Egypt and Turkey. Certainly, what DJT is proud of the humongous sale of arms to the most antisemitism nation in the world which has border 12 miles from Israel will not help things.

          • Steve Brizel says:

            The Democratic Partyi increasingly dominated by advocates of the progressive agenda.

          • Steve Brizel says:

            Whose rankings of military strength are you citing?

          • Steve Brizel says:

            Mycroft wrote in part:

            “Those people are not in power in Israel”

            The secular Ashkenazic elite in Israel makes no bones about their being the founders of post Zionism, and can be found in Haaretz the academic world and the last vestige of secular Ashkenazi power-the Jim Crow like world and sensibilities of the High Court of Justice

          • Mycroft says:

            See http://www.globalfirepower.com for rankings of military

          • Steve Brizel says:

            I would never speculate as to possible military options either by the US Israel or the Saudis their partner in interest against Iran .

          • Steve Brizel says:

            Iran and the media and what passes for academia and intellectual circles in Iran and the PA far surpass the Saudis as exporters of anti Semitism

          • Steve Brizel says:

            Israel’s image in the eyes of the descendants of those who perpetrated the Holocaust and the Gulags as well as those whose adherence to the progressive agenda requires that they hold Israel to a higher standard than North Korea or Iran is irrelevant.no nation should ever have to apologize for acting to protect its citizens

          • Mycroft says:

            The GOP has always been closely aligned with oil interests, never a good combo for Israel

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Take a look at the coverage of the President’s trip and statements in Israel. Hardly that of an Arabist.

        • Mycroft says:

          read the press in Israel about how afraid they are legitimately. The arms sale to Saudi Arabia is a big threat. DJT has plainly put Bibi on notice similarly to BHO. US by refusing to let Israel accompany him to Kotel openly showed disagreement with Israel’s claims.

          • Steve Brizel says:

            Arabists in the Jerusalem.consulate and in the DOS have an ugly anti Israel record. The link that you presented shows that Israel is the number 3 power in the Middle East

          • Steve Brizel says:

            I would discount much of what the Israeli press says and instead ask the average Israeli taxi driver their opinion. Much of the Israeli press led by the self hating Haaretz has an abysmal record on most if not all of the major political issues in Israel.

          • Mycroft says:

            I take Egged buses and yesterday comments were can’t wait for Trump to leave. They are naturally scared of him as is BTW Daniel Pipes.

          • Steve Brizel says:

            Looking forward to a regional anti terror alliance including both Israel and the Saudis no secret that there are under the radar discussions between Saudis and Israelis on a wide range of issues that the mainstream media ignores or isn’t capable of comprehending. Don’t be surprised if you here plans for a railway connecting Saudi Arabia to Israeli ports. The PA was and remains the huge loser on this trip

        • Mycroft says:

          Did you notice hat US refused to let Israeli govnt photographers record Trump at Kotel. Did you notice US website discussing trip to Israel, much less than on Riyad, have a few sentences on Israel, a sentence on welcome by Abbas. Then last sentence about visit to Church and Western Wall.

          • Steve Brizel says:

            The pictures of Trump all over the web at the Kosel wearing a kipah with his wife and daughter in the Ezras Nashim speak more than a thousand words

          • Steve Brizel says:

            See the Presidents comments to the effect that talk about peace is meaningless as long as the PA glorifies and subsidizes terror. Zero comments about two state solution only that he thinks that the Arabs may be willing to talk.hardly the comments that any one other than a die hard Arabist would view as pro Arab

          • Mycroft says:

            All the talk in the world is nice but selling top of the line weapons to an antisemitic regime 12 miles from Israel, says it all.

          • Mycroft says:

            Saudi Arabis has always been antisemitic, as a matter of theory has refused to deal with Israel. It is the talking points of the oil class in the US to try and moderate Saudi activities. Reason they are and have been for decades a. Crucial player in world oil supply. The revisionism of them especially takes place when oil men are in control of government see eg ex head of Exxon Sec of State.

            if there is one country in the world which fits Esau sonei et Yacov it is SaudiArabia. We have a government which is much prouder of its trip to Saudi Arabia than Israel. Of course, it’s arm deal which is devastating to Israel is a start.

          • Mycroft says:

            A railroad from Saudi Arabia to Eilat, why Aqaba is a gigantic port now, Ashdod and Haifa no rail even close to Eilat, just a little south of Beersheva. I would be surprised. Air India just announced that they will not fly to TA because Saudi Arabia wouldn’t grant them overfly rights. Saudi Arabia has been a source of funding for terrorists for decades. If it were a progressive US administration we’d have the attacks on them by commentators. Since action was done by RW Oil loving administration silence.

        • Mycroft says:

          just checked Whitehouse.gov and still see the paragraph on Israel trip ends with the last two sentences on Palestine and the Koel and theChurch of the burial,

          compare the lavish treatment of Saudi Arabia and Srael on the site, 75 years of close Saudi relationships, see of course the arms deal dwarfing everything from US to Israel

          • Mycroft says:

            Steve

            of course the link I showed who’s Israel third strongest power individually in the Mideast, but that means individually they are weaker than either Egypt or Turkey . Of course that means that any reasonable combination of surrounding countries is much stronger than israel

          • Steve Brizel says:

            Condemnation of Islamoterror in front of Abbas and emphasizing that peace talks require ending financial and other support for terrorists are a condition precedent or deal breaker for any talks. The WSJ noted that Trump spent hours with Netanyahu.compare that with bow Obama publicly and privately spoke with and about Bibi. Yes Obama signed off an arms deal for Israel but he never in his heart and mind comprehended or accepted the special relationship between the US and Israel.Trump has a long record of being an OhevYisrael and his childhood when his father helped with the building of ships and yeshivos.

          • Mycroft says:

            Steve

            i care abut policies, durin OBbama administration ISrael was granted more arms than any other century in the Middle Ast. This deal with Sad Arabia dwarfs any arms that Israel receives, no protests maybe because DJT is not a pogressve , he is one dedicate t the upper class.

            i agree that Obamas 2009 speech in Cairo was bad for Israel,but IIRC in front of an Arab audiencit was made clear that Israel is here, can you show me any mention of Israel that DJT  made in RIyad

  4. Steve Brizel says:

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/featured/1282385/trump-becomes-first-sitting-president-visit-kosel-video-photos.htmlFior those interested. Name another sitting president who visited the Kosel while in office.

    • Mycroft says:

      He did as a religious site holy to Jews, not as an Israeli site.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Wrong again The White House website now refers  to Jerusalem Israel.

        • Mycroft says:

          just checked Whitehouse.gov and still see the paragraph on Israel trip ends with the last two sentences on Palestine and the Koel and theChurch of the burial,

          compare the lavish treatment of Saudi Arabia and Srael on the site, 75 years of close Saudi relationships, see of course the arms deal dwarfing everything from US to Israel

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Name another president who visited the Kosel while in office.

    • Mycroft says:

      His administration made a point not part of Israel. Except for Nikki Haley who has decided to keep her own positions as UN Ambassador- clearly thinking of future in politics.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Ambassador Haley is an Ohev Yisrael.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        A freilichen Yom.Yerusahalayim.as long ad the PA subsidizes and honors terrorists and their families I would not anticipate any deal in the near or distant future. Your image of the GOP being dominated by the oil industry may have been correct in prior decades but the Republican platform was far more pro Israel than the Democrats and the influence of neocons and evangelists within the GOP as well as the amenability of the GOP to drum Jews as delegates is now a matter of fact.

        • Mycroft says:

          platform was a sales job to get votes and Adelson money, Hiring Tllerson as Sec of State h believe Tel Aviv is home of Judaism- of course. Assume he knows difference between sweet and sour crude.

        • Mycroft says:

          Show me Trumps policies and actions in Middle East. He has praised Saudi ARabia more than Israel. He belives that Srael is the source of intransigence in area. Publicly asked Bibi to slow down settlements. If his axions wer done by a Lberal president the whole right would be up in arms

  5. Raymond says:

    Really the Torah anticipated the islamoNazis.  Recall the ancient city of Sodom, how if Person A punched Person B in the face, then Person A would bring Person B to court because Person B’s face somehow traumatized Person A’s fist.  This is the kind of upside-down, pure evil we are dealing with here when we talk about the islamoNazis.  The reason why they are able to get away with it, is because their favorite target for their savage terrorism happens to be us Jews, and the world mostly believes that we Jews deserve to be murdered. After all, we Jews have never accepted their false G-ds nor their false prophets, and yet at the same time we Jews dare to bring the world a G-d that has the nerve to demand that we behave in a moral fashion and that if do not, then we face Divine consequences.  The world cannot tolerate being responsible for their own actions, and so they are angry at us Jews and want us dead.  The islamoNazis are merely carrying out in action, what the will is of the majority of our cruel world.

  6. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft , if policy is key why did Obama leak to the press about Israel’s cyberwar sucesses, micromanage the re supply of the IDF during the 2014 campaign in Gaza and stand by against the latest and most odious anti Israel resolution at the UN? I read that Obama was waiting to add the last to his wish bucket of achievements together with the terrible deal with Iran. Hardly policies that showed that he had Israel’s back.

    • Steve Brizel says:

      If Obama’s last name was Nixon he and his coterie would be facing a grand jury and subpoenas from Congress for using intelligence to spy on domestic political foes

  7. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft wrote:

    “Saudi Arabis has always been antisemitic, as a matter of theory has refused to deal with Israel. It is the talking points of the oil class in the US to try and moderate Saudi activities. Reason they are and have been for decades a. Crucial player in world oil supply. The revisionism of them especially takes place when oil men are in control of government see eg ex head of Exxon Sec of State.

    if there is one country in the world which fits Esau sonei et Yacov it is SaudiArabia. We have a government which is much prouder of its trip to Saudi Arabia than Israel. Of course, it’s arm deal which is devastating to Israel is a start.”

     

    The Saudis have been all talk for years. The Saudis were not active combatants in any of the wars since 1948 and oppose Hamas. Moreover, if you wish to engage in drashos and pshat about Esaav-look to Teheran-where eliminationist Nazi like rhetoric is used on a daily basis and where Hamas and Hezbolah have been and are still heavily financed exclusively by the Islamofascist regime in power.

    • Mycroft says:

      Teharan had Jewish day schools after the Khomeini Revolution, tough. On Israel but has had at least formal relationships with Jewish community.Believe have a token Jew in their Parliament. Saudi Arabia besides being a big financier of terrorism, see even 9/11 and Saudi money and connections, has been a connection for supporting madras and money. See famous sign on Saudi highway for exit Moslems only.

      For decades Saudi Arabia would not even let Jewish Americans representing US government in. I believe that finally ended when Sen Leibermann went there as a Senator and they first rejected him as a Jew, finally they backed down. Even after recentGulf War about 14 years ago Saudi Arabia refused to let a Jewish arms dealer for US government auction of surplus armaments.

      I doubt you read that in the expansive tribute from White House website on Presidents trip of 75 years of Saudi US cooperation.

       

       

       

  8. Steve Brizel says:

    Great recent pictures of IAF and USAF jets on joint training missions in this weeks FTJT.  The only sector of the Jewish community allowed in Iran is Neturei Karta. You have been reading too many of Roger Cohen’s self hating columns and ignoring the clearly Nazi like rhetoric that red me ts Iran’s views towards Both the US and Israel since 1979 just like most progressives and liberals who ignore the possibility of a nuclear armed Iran for reasons that can best be described as appeasement. The Saudis have never been an active combatant in any war since 1948 and their anti Semitic polo is while obviously very disturbing did not prevent Trump from bringing Kushner Ivsnka or Jason Greenwald to Saudi Arabia. I would think that you should rethink your views of Saudi Arabia and Iran his a vid which regime poses a greater existential threat to Israel.

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