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19 Responses

  1. joel rich says:

    AIUI soap used for purposes of this type of mouth washing would not have to be kosher.
    Joel Rich

  2. Mordechai says:

    “the groom leaned over and kissed the bride. Rav Elchonon was visibly shaken. Others tried calming him down. It’s not so bad, they said. After all, they were married at that point. Rav Elchonon responded with a quip from the final verse in Chumash. “ ‘L’einei kol Yisroel’ iz soif ha-Torah.”

    The story took place with the Netziv (IIRC).

    [YA – would like to get to be able to determine who was involved. My source is R Aharon Rakefet, in one of his more recent history shiurim.]

  3. Bob Miller says:

    Ideally, we would have no TV and not be directly aware of its latest poor taste.

  4. Shua Cohen says:

    I don’t know if I’m permitted to do this, but L. Oberstein left an incisive comment on another Cross-Currents thread which will (hopefully) temper the self-righteous criticism of this “America’s Got Talent” Modern-Orthodox family, that is likely to pour forth on various forums:

    “I had a long conversation with someone who is a top adviser to Mayor Nir Barkat over Shabbat…she is a frum lady. She told me that the fights among the chareidim and chassidim and Sephardim is much more intense than anything they have against the mayor or the secular. Each group is lobbying for their own interests. There is not even a fig leaf of holiness about it. She also told me that she is invited to many weddings where the couple eschew the rabbinate because they view it as corrupt and meaningless. She also told me that many are using alternative kashrus agencies because they believe that the Rabbanut is not really about kashrus, but about enrichment of those in control. Yet these are the same people who say that G-d is punishing us because of the actions of the others, but never of themselves. Are they obtuse? It is eye-opening to see what really goes on, and it’s disheartening.”

    So it is that the painful lack of Kedushas Klal Yisrael permeates EVERY “Orthodox” community, even as each one holds itself out to be the paradigm of Torah-observance. Yes, it is very disheartening, indeed.

  5. Chochom b'mah nishtanah says:

    Shua Cohen,

    1) There seems to be quite a lot missing from the alleged quote from the advisor.

    2) Frankly, I do not see any holier than though comments posted anywhere. Or to qualify, on any of the sites I tend to visit. I saw some posts bemoaning what was done, but I did not see holier than thou gloating. And they are very different.

    If you want to see what holier than thou gloating is, perhaps you can revisit this old story

    I did not notice you being all upset about holier than thou attitude then.

    What I did find fascinating is that the Jewish Weak had the unmitigated gall to even raise the question of chilul hashem, that entire publication is a non ending source of chilul hashem.

  6. Raymond says:

    There are all sorts of activities related to hygiene and other personal matters which, by definition, are not morally wrong, yet it would correctly be looked down upon by society. The common denominator in all this seems to be that while we are made of both spirit and body, that reducing ourselves to the purely physical, to the animalistic, is a source of embarrassment, as it should be.

    One of the negative consequences of our increasingly secular society, is that there is no room for such a concept as holiness, since by secular definition, we are nothing but animals anyway. Thus in such a world, there is no reason not to behave just like animals, having no shame, just satisfying our various physical needs without any concern for how this makes our peers feel. It makes me wonder if those pushing for such a G-dless society, have truly thought about such consequences, before imposing their views on all of us.

  7. Hypocrisy says:

    The Score:

    3 posts about a 12 year-old spouting nivul peh.

    0 posts about a Haredi Mayor of Jerusalem convicted of theft.

    The difference?

    The Haredi is *unser* and he was stealing to give money to a charedi charity .

    The Hillul Hashem from Lupolianski is astronomically greater than from Orlian.

  8. groinem says:

    There was no mayor convicted of theft, or any other crime this week or last.
    Get your facts straight.

  9. Shades of Gray says:

    “Talk, in fact, is a healthy outlet for a human instinct that G-d Himself engineered into us…Rav Elchonon responded with a quip from the final verse in Chumash.”

    R. Benjamin Yudin uses another pun from Chazal to advocate a positive type of talking: “lo dibra Torah ela keneged yetzer hara”(“Talking to Our Kids About the Birds and the Bees: Sanctifying the Intimate”, 24:00 on MP3, available on Torah Web). He says in fact that “more important than the content is the dialogue”(28:00).

    I wonder if having an appropriate outlet for discussion would substitute for the need to make inappropriate jokes.

  10. Baruch says:

    To Hypocrisy:

    In defense of CC, there really is not anymore to say about Lupoliansky. By all accounts, he is a kind, honest, sincere person who got corrupted by politics and could not withstand the temptation of quickly earning money for the charity which he built with sweat and tears. I do not justify it, and yes, it is a painful chilul Hashem, but there isn’t anything more to talk about. The way I see it, it’s classic example of “power corrupts.”

    The Orlian performance, though, should send shudders down our spines, serving as a shocking wake-up call to the effects of contemporary “culture” on the pure neshamos of our children. It is not just that he “spouted nivul peh” as you put it. As a 12-yr-old in the 1980’s I heard plenty of nivul peh in both MO and charedi settings, and my kids who are around that age hear it as well. The shocking part is how this kid did it proudly in front of the nation with his parents enjoying every minute. This is an alarming reminder of the breakdown of basic standards of decency and the loss of the tzelem Elokim which we cherish.

    In the past I’ve found it very distasteful when CC writers write triumphantly about something negative that comes up in the non-Orthodox or MO world. But I don’t think this is what happened in this instance. I found that the articles here focused on the real concerns that should be troubling us in light of this shocking video.

  11. Howard Tzvi says:

    Why are cases of Charedai misdeeds comparable to this situation? Both are bad! The problem with this case is that there are people who actually think that this boy and his parents typify עַם-זוּ יָצַרְתִּי לִי, תְּהִלָּתִי יְסַפֵּרוּ

  12. c-l,c says:

    Shua Cohen,
    Might it be presumtious to assume the “frum lady” is in need of a sort of rationale for her continued involvement with an administration that publicly promotes chillul shabbos?

    After years of demonizing the Charedi mayor and of course all charedim by association,the judge APOLOGIZED (a rarity in Israel)to him in the fall of 2012,because the case was so flimsy.

    Zero has changed.
    But could they allow Olmert to go down alone?(besides,since in the end they intend to give him just a slap on the wrist,it will make them into a mockery. )
    They officially publish Lapolianski is guilty (what happened to ex post facto?)
    They claim
    to have graciously made a deal so he would avoid serving (yea,sureal

  13. c-l,c says:

    Convince him (in his charedi naivete) to accept it and ‘arrange it to be only community service’

    Works like a charm

    And I have a bridge to sell you

    My query to you both,
    How do so shrewdly smokescreen even the lightest construed criticism of your milleu,by pulling it off with something so completely seemingly irrelevant ?

  14. AK says:

    Hypocrisy: “The Haredi is *unser*”.
    I take umbrage with your unwarranted divisive comment.
    1). I don’t recall Cross Currents posting about similar financial malfeasance of other, non-charedi politicians. It has nothing to do with us vs. them.
    2) I think that you would agree that Cross Currents would have surely posted if 12 year old was dressed as a charedi.

  15. Steve Brizel says:

    Hypocrisy I don’t think that either act is of a moral caliber.

  16. Steve Brizel says:

    Jokes and/or language of that nature should never be applauded as being part of the American mainstream. Avoiding language of that nature is a Kiddush HaShem.

  17. Steve Brizel says:

    Those of who work in the secular world are routinely subjected to such language and jokes. I like to think that when I walk into my home, it is bastion against such language and views. Why should we not aim for a life premised in Kedusha, regardless of our hashkafic POVs?

  18. Rafael Araujo says:

    “Why are cases of Charedai misdeeds comparable to this situation? Both are bad!” – Howard Tzvi

    Why? Because Hypocrisy’s comments typifies the MO reaction to these posting, which is to always deflect and point to chareidi white-collar crimes, and other misdeeds, thereby accusing Chareidim of always being hypocrites. I am glad to see other identified MO condemning this as well, even a fare number on line are either not bothered by it, feel it pales to Chreidi misdeeds, or it actually made Orthodox Jews more acceptable and “cooler” in the eyes of fellow North Americans.

  19. David Z says:

    My wife was so mortified and ashamed even reading a summary of the clip that she couldn’t bring herself to watch it. Not because of hate or criticism, but because she felt so embarrassed for the boy and his parents that they had the ability to do that. In this world I sometimes forget what k’dusha is… Thankfully I have her.

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