Modern Orthodoxy is Always at the Crossroads

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84 Responses

  1. Baruch Gitlin says:

    Kudos to Rabbi Broyde for writing such a wonderful and comprehensive exposition of Modern Orthodox philosophy, and to Cross-Currents for printing it. I particularly like the following: “The Charedi community will have to accept Modern Orthodoxy on its own terms – or not – but I know that progress forward is not possible in any community if one has to look over one’s left or right shoulder all the time.” I am a baal tshuva who adopted a charedi hashkafa for many years, until I left because, among other things, I found the intellectual atmosphere in the charedi world to be far too stifling, rigid, and often intellectually dishonest. But one of the reasons I initially avoided Modern Orthodoxy is that I felt it was too often reactive to the charedi world, rather than asserting its own ethos. I took this as a sign of weakness and lack of substance. Rabbi Broyde does a tremendous job here of asserting what Modern Orthodoxy does stand for. And, moreover, I think we should face facts – to a very large extent, the charedi world does not accept Modern Orthodoxy or Religious Zionism. I think the best evidence for this is the wholesale deligitimization of the conversions performed by Rabbi Druckman. No issue exemplifies the need for mutual cooperation better than conversion, so when the charedi world stops accepting non-charedi conversions, I would ask what the Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist world still has to lose from ignoring charedi criticisms? Better they should be true to their own philosophies, and move in positive, not reactive, directions.

  2. micha says:

    Isn’t R’ Adlerstein’s point that violating minhag Yisrael in order to incorporate a value not articulated in aggadita but rather through absorbtion of Western Culture itself a violation of halachic process, and thus its results beyond halakhah, beyond Orthodoxy? At some point not intending to violate halakhah isn’t enough; the violation in effect is so grievous there isn’t common ground.

    If it isn’t R’ Adlerstein’s point, it is something R’ Aharon Lichtenstein declared about the Partnership Minyanim in Katamon and elsewhere. RAL’s actual wording included branding them “Conservative”; comparing them to another community that (at least large sections of) do not intend to violate halakhah, but instead define it in a way incompatible with what we believe halakhah to be.

  3. Ellen says:

    people are not normally expelled for advocating ideas that are within the halachic universe but simply not proper or normative

    The problem here is that they are not advocating within – they have set up their own institution to do things their own way. If the RCA includes them, they’ll participate as much as they can, but when the RCA votes against one of their ideas they’ll do their own thing anyway. Not exactly in line with Rabbi Yehoshua who yielded to the Sanhedrin’s calculation of Yom Kippur.

    The decision to leave Rabbis Aharon Lichtenstein and Norman Lamm off this list, speaks volumes about what is wrong with this proposal and where its biases reside.

    I believe the suggested list (Rav Schachter, Rav Schwartz, Rav Willig) is a “gedolim list.” Why are those two absent? Rav Lichtenstein is not in the US (and has noted his different jurisdiction in the past) and Rabbi Lamm is not a posek. Here is essentially the difference of opinion you point out between Chovavei and some who have spoken against it: what is a gadol and do the Modern Orthodox care?

  4. Menachem Lipkin says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein’s article, while beautifully written as usual, troubled me greatly. I had difficultly articulating what about it bothered me so much. Now Rabbi Broyde has done the “heavy lifting” for me in so perfectly capturing my sentiments. As much as I admire Rabbi Adlerstein and see him an amazing voice of moderation, I’m not sure he fully understands the angst that so many of us in the orthodox community feel regarding many of these “modern” issues. Rabbi Slifkin gave voice to some of this last week in his article on “Post Chareidism” and today Rabbi Broyde has greatly enhanced that voice.

    IMHO, the ramifications of lopping off the left wing of orthodoxy would be far greater than Rabbi Adlerstein, the RCA, or YU realize. So many of us, who may not actually be in that camp, nevertheless depend on them to act as counterweight to prevent orthodoxy from careening over a cliff of fundamentalism and giving a place to so many Jews in our “tent” who otherwise would have none.

    Kol Hakavod Rabbi Broyde

  5. Tzvi says:

    Although I really disagree with everything Rabbi Adlerstein wrote in his original article, I just want to say that I am very impressed with his allowing this critique by Rabbi Broyde to be published in Cross Currents. This is an example of true mentshlichkeit on his part and also a machloket l’shaim shamayim on the parts of both participants. Thank uou!

  6. Harry Maryles says:

    I wish I could define and articulate the positions of Modern Orthodoxy with the skill and knowledge that Rabbi Broyde brings to the table. I am truely in awe of his ability to do that. I would certainly add his name to any ‘roster’ of an MO Moetzes.

    I have to say that while I understand Rabbi Adlerstein’s concerns and agree that we should do whatever we can to keep the trust of the charedi side of the Orthodox spectrum, I agree that we should remain a big tent on the ‘Far Left’ side of Orthodoxy as long as halacha is not breached. We need to remain with our own integrity on this issue. This does not mean that we cannot be critical of both the far left and the far right. I do that all the time on my blog. But at the same time it behooves us to seek unity among ourselves as Orthodox Jews. As Rabbi Broyde points out about himself and Rabbi Adlerstein so too is this true for all of Orthodoxy – there is more that unites us than divides us. Differences – no matter how great – ought to respected even as they are criticized.

  7. Shimon says:

    Rabbi Broyde wrote
    “The Nodah beYehuda observes (correctly in my view) in OC 2:18 that when there is a clear minhag yisrael to do something (in his case, to have 12 windows in a shul)”

    I looked up this Noda biyehuda and it says nothing about 12 windows in a shul.

  8. Bob Miller says:

    Part of the difficulty here is that the concepts of Jewish authenticity and fidelity to Torah are resistant to precise definition in words. Many things that feel wrong or smell wrong to traditional Jews really are wrong, but the exact reasons why can be hard to pin down. As used now, “daas Torah” typically refers to the intangible and intuitive aspects, but it, too, fails to capture the idea completely. Also, its limits are not well-defined, and even the most well-respected authorities in any given camp have differed among themselves about policy.

  9. Michael says:

    >the RCA specifically, ought to welcome into its tent anyone who professes loyalty to the theology of Jewish
    >belief endorsed by Rishonim and Aharonim as historically and halachically understood, and whose conduct is
    >governed by classical Jewish law, even if that conduct is inconsistent with the current norms…

    Why hasn’t the Union for Traditional Judaism been incorporated into the RCA? Is it just because they once called themselves the Union for Traditional *Conservative* Judaism? Why is Avi Weiss more acceptable than David Weiss Halivni?

  10. S. says:

    “Anyone who really understands what Modern Orthodoxy ought to be, understands that after we are finished expelling the “Far Left”, there will be a new far left to expel.”

    This is true and really all that needed to be said. All the rest is commentary.

  11. Citer says:

    Shimon: I think R. Broyde meant to write “4 walls in a shul” (although the 12 window issue in OH 90 is the usual issue, hence the confusion). But you could have been a little more generous in your comment, since R. Broyde’s halachic point from that tshuva was correct, and even the context (the architecture of a shul) was correct.

  12. SRS says:

    This is in response to Ellen:

    I believe the suggested list (Rav Schachter, Rav Schwartz, Rav Willig) is a “gedolim list.” Why are those two absent? Rav Lichtenstein is not in the US (and has noted his different jurisdiction in the past) and Rabbi Lamm is not a posek. Here is essentially the difference of opinion you point out between Chovavei and some who have spoken against it: what is a gadol and do the Modern Orthodox care?

    Me — Since when does one need to be a posek to be a gadol? The fact that Rabbi Lamm is not a posek means that he should not be included in such an important issue?

  13. L. Oberstein says:

    Yasher Koach for real dialogue, rather than preaching to the choir. I spoke with an individual of importance today who said only half in jest, that if the RCA beggan kicking out people, soon there wold be no one left. This pointgs out the reality that the right wing of orthodoxy sometimes only barely recognizes the legitimacy of those who have another, less isolationist point of view.
    Rabbi Broide is asking women who want equality to wait for the right time and not push the envelope. He may be right that what is accepted today was rejected not too long ago,but the opposiite is even ore true. Many stringencies that were only in the chasidic community like not having a woman’s picture in a magazine are becoming normative in the Yeshiva world. Religious soldiers in Israel seem to be demanding ever higher standards of modesty , as their rabbis decide it. If a man cannot command a woman in the army, what is next to be forbidden? I think there is an inevitable scism in the works.
    Neither side is reaally tolerant of the other.

  14. Observer of the Orthodox Community says:

    “The “Far Left” community has caused this crisis because they have adopted a pace of change that is neither planned out nor thought out nor shared.”

    I would like to comment on this formulation of Rabbi Broyde because it highlights the Western Culture component of Modern Orthodoxy – the Western world currently moves at ‘one hundred miles a minute’, many (including teenagers) are connected to the internet through hand held devices and communication no longer occurs through snail mail. All posts/comments are analyzed and dissected in real time, such that slowing down the pace through orderly, conscientious discussion, speaking and writing may not be possible or desirable (lest it be considered outdated). The community at large wants answers, often without carefully considering the questions at play.

    Slowing the pace of change/modification in the name of unity/understanding will require MAJOR efforts on both the right (no Kol Korei-like pronouncements) and left (think, then act). To draw upon lessons from the U.S. government, nothing will ever be accomplished unless moderate, yet outstandingly learned voices such as Rabbi Broyde’s) bring the “far left” and “far right” to the table.

    Here’s hoping that this is possible.

  15. Noam stadlan says:

    Excellent piece by Rav Broyde and kudos to Rav Adlerstein for publishing it here. Where great and small minds will disagree is on when to push for change and when to wait. When does the pull from the right mandate a greater pace for change? Sometimes waiting for gradual change doesn’t seem like an attractive option when the the other side is changing without waiting

  16. James says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein is concerned that failure to expel certain members from Modern Orthodoxy would jeopardize cooperation with charedim. Rabbi Broyde is not.

    There are three problems with that argument:

    1. It assumes that there is substantive and meaningful dialogue between the two camps. Does anyone believe that to be the case? Not one member of the Moetzet will ever say a shiur at YU and Rabbis Schachter and Willig will never be invited to give a shiur at BMG.

    2. The best way to encourage the Modern Orthodox to consider the opinions of the Chareidim is to encourage the Chareidim to be more accepting of people with whom they disagree. I dont think Rabbi Broyde feels he has anything to gain by kicking out the far left.

    3. Rabbi Adlerstein, if you are concerned with cooperation between the two camps, why not write an article advocating for the expulsion of the far right? A while back, your “fast friend” Rabbi Broyde was vilified and labeled a heretic by a Chareidi “gadol”. An article advocating for his removal from mainstream Chareidi organizations would have gone a long way in convincing the Modern Orthodox that you really do care about cooperation within a framework of mutual respect.

  17. dr. bill says:

    Ellen’s comment (re poskim) brings an important issue into sharp focus. Is expelling the MO left a halakhic issue or an important political and/or hashkafic one where Rabbi Lamm (as well as other “non-poskim”) have important perspective to add?

  18. DF says:

    “Allow me to give it a definition: the Orthodox “Far Left” is a group within the Orthodox community which is attempting to discard many aspects of minhag yisrael on matters of women’s issues and perhaps will come to adopt the same approach to other issues as well”

    PRECISELY. The far left that Rabbi Broyde champions is simply and wholly a feminist organization that only “perhaps” might eventually approach other issues. In other words, it’s a special interest group for a small minority of women, masquerading as a religious ideal. There are plenty of areas withing contemporary orthdox life in which a pendulum swing correction of “kulah” should now be taught. Shabbos, for example, or kashrus, are areas of universal practicality in which there has been an undeniable tilt towards chumrah in the past few decades. The entirety of the orthodox spectrum could use a fresh look at the current halacha in these fields. Yet we hear nary a peep from the far left in this regard. Instead, we hear over and over about nothing more than women’s issues. This is on top of the feminist ideology we must aborb on a regular basis from the secualr society. Sorry, Rabbi Broyde, you can cite data bases of seforim all you want. This is not a movement picking up steam, and nothing the broader orthdox community has any interest in joining.

  19. joel rich says:

    dr. bill,
    That is one of the dividing lines between MO and chareidism, well not really, IIUC chareidism would be OK on a defacto basis with your statement if you added “in a non-public manner” after “perspective to add”
    KT

  20. Steve Brizel says:

    Let me add an additional point or two to this conversation. R Broyde is a fine talmid Chacham who has undertaken the very arduous, if not impossible job, of serving as a middle of the road between LW MO and the RIETS RY. That being the case, I think that RAL, as noted previously, views himself both as unqualified to serve in such a capacity with respect to a community that he basically visits for recruiting and fund-raising purposes since RAL made aliyah in the early 1970s. More fundamentally, in two articles published in Leaves of Faith , Vol.2, Pages 309-331, and By His Light, Pages 220-252, RAL identifies many areas for spiritual improvement within MO. I would suggest that the RIETS RY, who spend much of their spare time, giving shiurim all over the US, and engaging in kiruv and chizuk and Harbatzas Torah throughout the greater MO world, have a far better sense of the facts on the ground in the US than RAL.

    R D Lamm was a great President , fund raiser, Baal Machshavah and darshan. However, IMO, R D Lamm’s not so benign neglect of JSS, sent a message that BTs have no place in YU, let alone MO, and allowed the Charedi world to assume a predominant role in kiruv and dealing with BTs. The aborted closings of Revel and MTA also IMO showed a lack of appreciation of the role of academic Jewish studies and a high school as a feeder for a yeshiva gdolah. Moreover, being a great President, fund raiser, Baal Machshavah, and darshan AFAIK requires a far different skill set than being a great Talmid Chacham and Posek. R D Lamm’s reign was also marked by a not so subtle sense of public disagreement with his own RY, and his Hashkafic battles with the Charedi world.

  21. Steve Brizel says:

    R Broyde’s article failed IMO to note that many who consider themselves or are considerd LW MO view as legitimate the POVs advocated by many advocates of LW MO that TSBP is sexist, that there is nothing unique about the covenant between HaShem and Klal Yisrael, advocate the changing of Nusach HaTefilah and even maintain that the uniqueness of Moshe Rabbeinu and Chazal is limited to their times, culture and knowledge. Like it or not, IMO, MO has a noisy LW, a silent majority, and a vocal RW. The real issue remains whether MO will abandon what IMO is an obsession with inside baseball and water cooler like pilpulim about issues that are irrelevant to the person on the street, and articulate a message that has depth and profundity to the average American Jew that one can live a life committed to Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim of the highest order while working as a college educated professional. IMO, that is the message that needs to be stressed, as opposed to apologetica geared for cultural deviants, feminists, and their supporters.

    The real question, which R Broyde did not address IMO, is who does the greater MO world turn to on halachic and hashkafic issues, regardless of the nature of the same.

  22. Daniel says:

    I am a bit confused on a few counts.

    A. Firstly: He says that the Modern Orthodox tent must have walls. He just thinks these people are within his walls. Then, he criticizes the “far-left” for not having walls. He criticizes them for silence in the face of; (1) attacking Rabbis Willig and Schachter, (2) issuing a “gay friendly” haggada (whatever that means), (3) ordaining a rabba, (4) having a woman lead kabbalas shabbos.

    The implication is that Rabbi Broyde would like to see the people who do this excluded from the far-left’s tent, and certainly from his own tent.
    Well, these are for the most part, the people who Rabbi Adlerstien is attempting to exclude. This is, YCT and Avi Weiss.

    I guess he allowing Rabbi Kanafsky to stay, but I wonder why: Did he protest these 4 things? Was he also silent to Avi Weiss? Did Rabbi Kanafsky exclude them from his own tent? Does Rabbi Broyde allow in his tent, those who will not exclude them who Rabbi Broyde excludes?

    B. Secondly, I simply do not understand the line he wishes to draw. Is there not a fundamental difference between how Rabbi Broyde determines halacha and how it is being determined by the far left? I am no posek, but is one really allowed to choose random acharonim which we have not accepted for hundreds of years and use it?

    Only when it is for the purpose of “serious religious growth”? Who decides this? Each person on his own decides what he needs for his religious growth and finds a shittas acharonim to support it?

    If I decide to not hold of “chan”an by shaa”r issurim” (rashba in toras habayis and mechaber), to not hold of “Shehiya b’miut basrah” (mechaber), to not wait after meat before milk but to only bentch (yesh omrim in rema, tosfos), etc., am I still in Rabbi Broyde’s tent?

    More importantly, does that not underscore the problem? If I am in his tent, will he allow me to be a mashgiach in a restaurant where I will presumably allow things which are clearly issur according to all normative ashkenazi halacha? Will he eat my own hashgacha? Will he want the OU to accept it in their facilities?
    If I pasken some kulah in gittin which has not been held of in 400 years, will he uphold my gittin? Will he allow his congregants to marry my divorcees? Will he officiate?

    C. Thirdly, as I alluded, I do not take as lightly as he, the danger for division this brings. I am from a nice out of town community, where everyone eats the local hashgacha, where everyone davens in all the shuls, where you can marry a divorcee without wondering if she is an eishes ish, and can marry a convert without wondering if your kids will be Jewish (and if you are being oiver on the gzeira of beis dino shel shem).

    But, if these people begin doing gittin, will we be able to marry their divorcees; if they do geirus, will we marry their converts; will we eat their food? No. How could we, when they do not follow normative halacha?
    Is that not a problem? Will the chareidi community break away and form a registry of families who they will marry into? Is that not a negative development? Say it is worth it, but don’t say it will not happen or is not negative.

    Beis shammai and beis hillel were friends, but would tell each other whom in their community was a mamzer (from tzaras ervah in yibbum), or a pagum (from tzaras ervah l’shuk) to each other. The division of beis shammai and beis hillel was not seen as a positive development in Judaism, and eventually they decreed that it was assur to even be machmir like beis shammai. So even imagine they l’havdil are like beis shammai- should we not ostracize the people who would divide Judaism like happened in the times of beis shammai?

    D. Fourthly, I am unfamiliar with the idea of it being central to Judaim to absorb concepts from the outside (presumably because I went to a relatively chareidi yeshiva- Chofetz Chaim). But, let us allow it to be so. Who is to decide what ideas to absorb? Does everyone absorb what they like, and then claim it is in the name of G-d that they do it? Is that weird? Is that not just doing whatever you want, and claiming it is G-d’s will?

    E. Regarding the substantive issue, of whether they are in the realm of the halachic process at all- I have no idea. I am no posek.

  23. Eric Leibman says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein:

    Expel the YCT people and Avi Weiss and his ilk now and be done with them. Permanently. Just put them in cherem. Your niceness is misplaced and misguided. This is war. And you need to act like it.

  24. Mike S. says:

    Let me cite four and a half cases where Askenazic practice is at complete variance with the psak of Chazal: 1) We do not permit women to do shchita 2) We do not duchen every day 3) We forbid eating rice on Pesach and 4) We do not give z’roa lchayayim and keva from shcitas chullin to kohanim and 4.5) The chassidic practice of not eating in the sukkah on shmini atzeret chutz la’aretz. The first is an explicit p’sak of the Rema without a clear source, and his successors argue as to the reason. For the second, the Rema offers what can olny be described as a post hoc attempt at justification and a weak one at that. Both the Gaon and R. Chaim of Volozhin tried to change the minhag and gave it up after mischance. The third is mocked in early Ashkenazic rabbinic literature as a foolish folk custom only to pop up a couple centuries later as holy minhag that va’ad arba aratzot will enforce. The fourth seems to have been practiced until comparatively recently, leaving 19th century posekim puzzled as to why the butchers have stopped giving the required matanot. The sukkah was cited as one of the deviations justifying a cherem against the chassidim–yet less than 150 years after the Vilna cherem a mainstream Litvische posek (Aruch haShulchan) is offering a limud z’chut for the practice. It is very hard to avoid the historical inference that there have been any number of cases where popular acceptance of certain changes in practice has forced the rabbonim into justifying the practice after the fact. Certainly orthodoxy has come to terms with the deviation of Chassidim from what had been normative Ashkenazic practice.

    That leads me to suggest there are several possibilities for the left wing orthodox practices at issue.

    1) They will meet a social need and spread and a couple generations from now gedolei yisrael who everyone accepts will find at least post hoc justification for what will have become a wide spread practice

    2) They will not meet much of a need and will dies out or live on as an oddball practice of a few shuls, that poses no great concern.

    3) They are the start of a slippery slope and those who adopt them will eventually abandon halachic observance and thereby pull themselves out of the orthodox community.

    4) The right wing will succeed in getting them pushed out of the community.

    I am not a seer and cannot predict which of these will occur. However, I am pretty sure that if choice 3 will happen, no amount of protest from the chareidi community will avoid it. I suppose the goal of such protest is to keep 1) from happening in favor of 2), but I strongly suspect that harrangues from rabbinic leaders will matter far less in the long run than whether they can develop methods of chinuch so that the contrast between a woman’s roles in religious and secular life is not so alienating to so many women and men. On the other hand, I think Chazal are pretty explicit that if 4) were to occur those responsible will be held to account by the ultimate Judge not only for the aveirot committed by those driven away, but by their descendants for all eternity. Given the history of deviations from practice and even halacha that are eventually accepted, I do not see how anyone can be sufficiently confident of the value of 2) over 1), much less his ability to effect it, to risk responsibility for choice 4). But then, I am not a Manhig Yisroel; perhaps out leaders need to be made of sterner stuff than I am.

  25. Michael Broyde says:

    First and foremost, I want to thank Rabbi Adlerstein for publishing my essay. Whatever comes of this, Rabbi Adlerstein remains a shining model of how dialogue is supposed to take place. Although he is the director of Interfaith Affairs for the Simon Wiesenthal Center, if Orthodoxy had a director of intra-faith affairs, I would nominate him for that post too. So too, his kind words about me are over stated. I view myself one who struggles to keep up in serious Torah and the most that can be said is that I am blessed to have been well trained by excellent rabayim and teachers at Yeshiva University.
    I reply now to the first 17 comments and I will try to log on regularly to comment on additional comments as needed. I do not reply to every comment.
    To Baruch Gitlin: I do not think that dialogue within the Orthodox community is anywhere near impossible. I think that the starting point has to be both respect and ligitimazation – and proper tone is very important too. We are lacking now in all of these, but none are uncorrectable errors.
    To Micha: Your comment “Isn’t R’ Adlerstein’s point that violating minhag Yisrael in order to incorporate a value not articulated in aggadita but rather through absorption of Western Culture itself a violation of halachic process, and thus its results beyond halakhah, beyond Orthodoxy” I think the answer is no and I think we all need to recognize that minhag yisrael in some areas does change slowly and carefully. So too, the absorption of external values is sometimes part of the process. That is exactly what tov shebeyefet be’ohalai shem means.
    To Ellen: I do not think that decisions of inclusion or exclusion are uniquely limited to poskim (and I am not sure if you are correct about Rabbi Lamm, either). The Moetzet of Agunah is not made up exclusively of poskim either.
    To Menachem Lipkin: I agree with your first two paragraphs in some sense, and in some senses not and I thank you for your final sentence.
    To Shimon: Thank you for your comments. Another commentator explained this well, although windows and walls are clearly interrelated in Bet Yosef OC 90.
    To Michael: Rabbi Avi Weiss is a Orthodox rabbi in a shul with a mechitza. Although I do not agree with much of what he does in a few areas, your comment seems over-zealous.
    To Observer of the Orthodox community: Your comments are worthy of a great deal of thought. You could be correct.

    Thank you to the many commentators who posted kind words as well. They are un-earned, but appreciated.

  26. David F. says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein’s, did you really think the commenters here on CC would do the heavy lifting for you? Not a single response here surprised me and I don’t know the commenters nearly as well as you do.

    Rabbi Broyde writes, “Instead, we should allow experimentation within the Orthodox community to allow time to help us discern what is and what is not missing from our tent”
    Catholic Israel anyone?

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      As Yogi Berra said, “It ain’t over till it’s over.”

      I will admit to being surprised by the comments. Either Rabbi Broyde is bussing them in (I doubt it), or the readership of CC is even more diverse than I had thought! It will be worthwhile having to do my own heavy lifting (if the more traditional readership does not wake up and start pecking away at their keyboards) to find out that CC is occassionally read by a good number of people who did not have yeshivish chinuch, or do not identify with it, even while remaining committed to halacha. That would make CC an even more important enterprise than I had thought.

  27. Michael Broyde says:

    After I wrote my comments on the first 17 comments, but before they were posted, five more comments came, some of which are worthy of comment.
    To Steve Brizel: You are underplaying Rabbi Lamm’s massive intellectual contributions to our community in his writing and you are also over emphasizing Rabbi Lichtenstein’s criticism, while under emphasizing his role. He clear identifies with Modern Orthodoxy and the reverse too. When the RCA turns to its most senior members, Rabbi Lichtenstein is always on that list as was Rabbi Lamm. I agreed with the second half of your second post, and thought the first half of your second post was of the wrong tone and misplaced in its emphasis.
    To Daniel: I am sorry that you are confused. It must be my poor writing style. I am sorry. Let me write tersely, since verbose did not work. (A) I think that every tent needs walls, but silence – while a bad strategy to create walls — is rarely a form of agreement; Walls are not formed by silence. (B) I think contemporary gedolim do not form the walls that I think we should use to exclude people and that walls is formed by gedolai rishonim and achronim. Let me use the example of Channan that you picked. The Mechaber denies Chanan beshar issurim and he certainly is “in”; I assume even you agree? I might not eat the food of a person who adopts the Mechaber’s view, but I would certainly consider such a person Orthodox and welcomed into my Orthodox community. Lockstep is not needed all the time. (C) Division is always complex and I do not take it lightly. I think no one should leave yet. (D) This is a complex topic. I suggest you read Rabbi Lamm’s Torah Ummadah and Rabbi Lichtenstein’s “Leaves of Faith”

  28. Dr. E says:

    I know both of of our discussants, and I think the answer lies probably somewhere in the middle of what is really a narrow Hashkafic continuum (although this is confounded by the knowledge that Rabbi Adlerstein is more Modern than his critics give him credit for and Rabbi Broyde is more traditional (small ‘t’) than his critics give him credit for.)

  29. Joe Hill says:

    Rabbi Prof. Broyde’s arguments reach their logical conclusion by arguing that it is okay to deny the coming of Moshiach, as Hillel himself does.

  30. Gary Shulman says:

    There is something more dangerous to the faith than a woman reading at a chasunah a kesuba,or a rabbi having a problem with saying a brocha that today seems to some not p.c. in his private davening. [Changing the nusach hatifila in his shul by omiting this brocha would be a problem for me.] Those that klap at the end of davening “Long live our rebbe and teacher King Messiah forever and ever.”and are viewed by most as very religious scare me and are a great threat to Judaism as a monotheistic religion. YCT is the molehill and the “Others” are the mountain.

  31. Elliot Pasik says:

    A modern orthodox moetzes would be inconsistent with our democratic roots and American venue. Aguda is daas Torah, gedolim, and pre-war Europe. The RCA works fine. I see no need to either stifle individual rabbinic growth and creativity, and the exclusion of so-called daas baal-ha’battim from critical decision-making. Already, we’re arguing over who should be on the modern orthodox moetzes, and machlokes will only increase as the MO Moetzes is compared to the Aguda Moetzes. A different model would be the old Council of Four Lands in Europe, which combined rabbis and communal leaders. Such an idea would be worth pursuing.

  32. joel rich says:

    Dr. E,
    R’YA calls for a “third way” somewhere between MO and chareidism. I think that once MO is rejected, the knock at the door (or the tolling of the bell) will be for the “third way”.

    I’d also ask those who think the hashkafa question is black and white and not subject to the public voting with its feet, to consider the origins of chasidism and the current issue referred to by R’ Gary Shulman above.
    KT

  33. Daniel says:

    Thank you for responding.

    I have a couple more questions:

    A. I am still wondering about your stance towards Avi Weiss and YCT. I had thought they were the main targets of Rabbi Adlerstein’s article, but you seem to agree they are out of your tent, and are focusing the discussion on people who are “attempting to discard many aspects of minhag yisrael on matters of women’s issues and perhaps will come to adopt the same approach to other issues as well;” but keep their actions within the bounds of what you consider halacha, by finding a shittas acharonim to rely on.
    So, would you make explicit whether Avi Weiss and YCT are orthodox, and what measures you might support against them by groups such as the RCA?

    B. If I understand correctly, your contention is any machlokes which was decided since the gemara was sealed has the status of “minhag yisroel”, instead of halacha. And thus, you apply the noda b’yehuda that one may discard minhag yisroel for religious gain. And thus, these people are orthodox since that is what they claim to do. (aside: This noda be’yehuda was talking about windows in a shul, but you say it would apply equally to issur v’heter. Is there any other source for this idea that might go closer to issur v’heter?)
    Would you make explicit whether you have any more qualifications. Such as, must one be a talmid chochom to decide to discard minhag yisroel, or is this a personal choice?

  34. Dovid K. says:

    The problem with our Shtadlonim like Rov Adlerstein and Avi Shafran is that they don’t have a kinyan on chochmas haamim. They think because they quote a football player like Yogi Berra it shows that they really know the goyishe velt. Its like if a frei yid quotes Mordechai Ben David to show they know the frum velt.

    Our shtadlanim all need bekius and iyyun in the real chochmei haamim like Aristotle, Plato, Kant, Hegel, Darwin, Neitsche.

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      You misspelled Nietzsche
      I once picked up a copy of Aristotle, but it was purely accidental
      I hate Plato. The kids used to leave pieces of it on the floor, and on Pesach we could never figure out whether it was chametz nukshah, or chametz gamur
      I would love to think of a categorical imperative to prove you wrong, but I Kant.
      I tried modifying my attitude towards Hegel, but every time I tried to change, I kept going around in a helix
      I ran into Darwin once myself, on a trip to the Galapagos Islands. He was having a hard time adapting.

  35. Michael Broyde says:

    To David F: Catholic Orthodox Israel is a fine concept widely noted in the various poskim, albeit not in that term. I have no problem with it, nor I suspect does anyone else. The central issue is what is Orthodox such that being catholic about it is okay.
    To Joe Hill: No, I think you are mistaken. Ideas are sometimes voiced and discarded, and sometimes they are long term disputes within halacha or haskafa. The view that there is no Moshiach has been long since rejected, whereas the view that Channan does not apply to shar issurim is alive and well, and so is the idea that our sifrai torah have vav’s in them that might not have been in the original one.

  36. Daniel W says:

    R’ Adlerstein – This article has been shared many times on Facebook (among other places, I’m sure) and it comes as no surprise that the readership has increased, especially by those who are apt to be active on such sites. As I have said to others before, the intellectual world is small: as soon as an article/blog/commentary is posted, it can be referred to and repsonded to anywhere in the world. This could indeed underscore your note that it “would make CC an even more important enterprise than I had thought.” It’s certainly cheaper than flying everyone in for a conference :^)

    It is also relatable to R’ Broyde’s notion that some “deny the need for sanction from gedolim to make the changes they recommend.” Anyone who considers himself an intellectual can do their Google research to find support for their cause. While I must say that I gain so much from even being able to see the rabbinic interaction in these articles, the comments also allow for regular “Balabatim” like myself to chime in with thoughts and questions (and, of course, anyone can publish his own blog response). Thus the separation between the great rabbinic minds and the non-rabbinic kibbitzers almost disappears. How do I know which people involved are indeed Gedolim? If someone puts forth a compelling argument, who am I to disagree?

  37. Aaron L says:

    Attempts to delegitimize (from the right or the left) instead of engaging in respectful, source-based, and honest debate damage the Jewish people. Our achdut suffers, and our attempts to “win” create dishonest uses of sources and needless personal slander which most thinking Jews will reject and find extremely distasteful. YCT ordained rabbis currently have been invested with serious positions in Orthodox communities, Hillels, and day schools around the country, and there will be nearly 100 of them leading communities in just a few short years. Trying to convince the tens of thousands of people they have engaged in Torah that they are not legitimate, Orthodox, honest, et cetera will only do damage to the credibility of the attackers.

  38. Michael Berger says:

    I enjoyed Rabbi Broyde’s piece (I regrettably did not have a chance to read Rabbi Adlerstein’s original post) and the flurry of comments. Refreshingly spirited, respectful (for the most part), and largely substantive. This is rare on today’s internet and should be noted (and appreciated).
    I don’t have much to add to the many insightful comments but to note two related things:
    1) Historical context plays a critical yet unstated role in this discussion. The comparison of today’s realities and debates to many machlokot and differences of opinion over the pre-modern centuries is not fully legitimate, because the existence of denominations today render certain options and debates that may fit Rabbi Broyde’s criteria of “inside Historical Orthodoxy” to now be “off the table” by virtue of their identification with contemporary non-halakhic communities. Of course, this has been true in every generation – determining what’s “in” or “out” always and unavoidably takes place in a context of other Jewish groups and their claims. To take a banal but relevant example: the Ba’al ha-maor is able to raise the possibility that those who do not prepare chamin for shabbat (through hatmanah) can be suspected of being a min simply because he lived among Karaites who insisted that any warm food on shabbat was assur. We all know that saying such a thing today would be odd, since Karaites are not the contemporary halakhic community’s opponent. This, I think, is RAL’s point (as cited by one comment) about the more egal minyanim in Yerushalayim and what is making several individuals get so upset at Rabbi Kanefsky’s proposal around changing “she-lo asani ishah” – we live in a time where changing matbe’a hatefillah has been done by groups clearly NOT within Orthodoxy (and at times, brazenly anti-Halakhah), and many Jews cannot easily see a way to say “yes” to one change and “no” to others (the “slippery slope argument”). Rabbi Broyde has proposed some basis for distinction – it has to be from a source within “historical Orthodoxy,” it should affect “minhag” rather than “halakhah,” etc. I myself do not know whether this distinction can or will stand by itself (e.g., minhag has morphed into halakhah in both Ashkenaz and Sfarad over the centuries in so many ways that I don’t know how the distinction can be objectively maintained), but we should see Rabbi Broyde’s suggestion as an effort to “hold the halakhic line” in some way without insisting on uniformity. In a sense, he has looked over at Conservative Judaism – which for over a century claimed to be a halakhic movement – seen that most Conservative rabbis no longer feel the need to cite a “da’at yachid” or plumb the traditional halakhic sources to justify their positions, and thus Orthodoxy can (now) afford to be more expansive and its tent bigger. I am thus not necessarily agreeing with Rabbi Broyde’s position, but I do want to contextualize it within the larger realities of the contemporary Jewish landscape – which, in my mind, has ALWAYS been the appropriate context for such discussions.
    2) In a related vein, the term “Historical Orthodoxy” is troubling – or, more accurately, overly vague – to me, and I need to know more to understand what Rabbi Broyde means, since it is the basis for his determining the walls of Orthodoxy’s tent. Several posters noted this vagueness — positions that were normative at one point in history, and are even recorded in our authoritative codes, no longer are! — so hopefully in the coming days he will share with us what criteria he’s using to establish the membership of this or that view within “Historical Orthodoxy.” He might, in fact, admit that the notion of “Historical Orthodoxy” is itself fluid and evolving – Chassidut would likely have been excluded in 1780 but included in 1880 – but that just puts the onus on identifying what TODAY we would use as our criteria for being part of that tradition. Leaving aside the fact that the term “Orthodoxy” is itself recent (and he thus should let us know what “Orthodoxy” meant at the time of the Rishonim and early-middle Acharonim), we are all aware that many things can bring a view into Orthodoxy or expel it: the authority of a tremendous posek or group of poskim, a community’s practices and norms, threats (real or perceived) from others – these are all factors that in the history of halakhah have helped determine what is acceptable and what is not. Now Rabbi Broyde, as a professor of law, may feel comfortable using a reified term like “historical Orthodoxy” (as if there was a book called “historical Orthodoxy” and I could just open it up to see if this or that position was in it) but we respectfully ask him to clarify what he means since what the term itself denominates seems to change over the ages and places.
    Yasher koach to all for a thoughtful and provocative discussion. Devarim be-rumo shel olam.

  39. Yosef Kanefsky says:

    I add my appreciation to Rabbi Adlerstein for allowing Rabbi Broyde to guest-post. This decision reflects, as others have said, Rabbi Adlerstein’s interest in honest dialogue. In that spirit, I would ask him to cease and desist from using the (dramatically capitalized) term Far Left in this discussion. Borrowed from the coarsest of today’s political rhetoric, it is a term chosen in order to delegitimize the opponent (just as the term Far Right does). Its use is intended to shut down discussion rather than open it up. It is a crass political tool, specifically intended to suggest that conversation and dialogue are absurd, for the other side is off its rocker.
    I know that there are significant areas of disagreement. But the first decision is whether we are prepared to engage one another in respectful, thoughtful discussion or not. Perhaps we have already come to the place where even respectfully engaging the most modern (or whatever adjective you prefer) of the Modern Orthodox community, is to a grant it a legitimacy that needs to be withheld. I sincerely hope not, and would be delighted to hear otherwise.

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      Rabbi Kanefsky’s appreciative note is reciprocally appreciated! I am afraid, however, that I don’t understand his point about the use of the descriptor “Far Left.” I don’t readily understand why a phrase that positions a certain ideology on a continuum is more objectionable than ways groups describe themselves, which inevitably contrast (favorably) with different groups. Take the term “Open Orthodoxy,” for instance. Is that term not laden with implied criticism of other groups? Can you see Aguda emblazoning the slogan “Closed Orthodoxy!” on its banner? What should we make of YCT’s self-description? “The goal of the Torah curriculum at YCT is to create knowledgeable, broadminded and critical-thinking Torah scholars (talmidei chakhamim), halakhic decisors and spiritual leaders. The span of this curriculum, in depth, breadth and methodology goes far beyond that of classic Orthodox rabbinical schools and yeshivot.” Is the reference to the depth and breadth not found in other yeshivos meant to stimulate dialogue?

      These phrases – self-descriptions and depictions of others – are meant neither to shut down discussion, nor to stimulate. They are meant to capture a bit of the passion of a group or its self-understanding in a few words.

      Whether or not we have reached a point where dialogue has become impossible for fear of conferring legitimacy is not for me to decide. פוק חזי מאי עמא דבר . There are clearly communities in which this is not even a question; dialogue is not the issue, because people don’t see any great issues at stake. Perhaps they are right. There are other communities, however, where there is no longer any dialogue, actual or potential, because people are convinced that the distance in halachic and hashkafic outlook is so pronounced, that they no longer share a common language of discourse. Perhaps they are right. Or perhaps no one is right. I wish I could offer more reassurance, but I am uncertain myself.

  40. ARW says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein,
    If by “heave lifting” you mean you expect people on the right to respond to Rabbi Broyde, then it will not happen. Rabbi Broyde is considered to be well outside the right wing camp, by many to actually be either part of the far left or overly sympathetic to it. No one really believes they are going to convince him of anything. People on the right have no interest in having dialogue around statements like “the best of western culture should be part of the Jewish community”. This indicates a world view so far from our own that there is no common point of discussion. Also I find the use of euphemisms like “expanding borders” to be disingenuous. The far left does not want to expand borders; they want to control the entire country.

    On the other hand I think that the idea that the RCA will take a strong stand on this is highly unlikely. Where will the boundary be drawn? Unless the far left starts saying things openly and explicitly like “we do not believe in the revelation at Har Sinai” or “we repudiate the authority of Chazal” then they will not be expelled. Simply implying these things, which I think they have done, will not be adequate to push the RCA leadership to action.

  41. Michael says:

    Rabbi Broyde wrote: “Rabbi Avi Weiss is a Orthodox rabbi in a shul with a mechitza. Although I do not agree with much of what he does in a few areas, your comment seems over-zealous.”

    Rabbi, I appreciate your reply, but I’m afraid I don’t understand it. Rabbi Weiss has produced a Rabbah and a Maharat and had a woman lead Kabbalat Shabbat. Is a mechitza more or less “minhag yisrael” than those? Are you saying that any Rabbi in a shul without a mechitza can’t be in the RCA?

    I really don’t know a lot about the UTJ, I just heard about it, and when I read what they have on their website it seems to meet your definition. It “professes loyalty to the theology of Jewish belief endorsed by Rishonim and Aharonim as historically and halachically understood, and whose conduct is governed by classical Jewish law, even if that conduct is inconsistent with the current norms.”

  42. Yehoshua K says:

    I must begin with the admission that I, most likely, lie somewhere in that 3rd Way that Rabbi Adlerstein advocates. A BT of over 2 decades, with years of chareidi yeshiva learning behind me, and currently working in “klal work” in the chareidi community, I also consider myself both knowledgeable and appreciative of certain elements of secular thought, philosophy, and worldview. I try to live in absolute adherence to the words of Torah, Chazal, and the Gedolei Torah of our generation. At the same time, I endeavor to make myself aware and informed regarding both challenges to the lifestyle and community I have chosen, as well as insights and ideas that would benefit and advance the communities and individuals I both benefit from and serve.

    All of that said, I find elements of Rabbi Broyde’s defense of Modern Orthodoxy to be wishful thinking at best, and, unfortunately, more likely somewhat disingenuous. While I would not question for a moment Rabbi Broyde’s sincere and serious allegience to halacha, nor would I feel differently for the choshuva roshei yeshiva and rabbanim of RIETS, the Rebbeim in countless in and out of town day-schools and mosdos that are musmachim of RIETS and other institutions, and the klei kodesh of OU and YI shuls around the United States, to claim that the singular motivating drive in the relationship between Modern Orthodoxy and the secular world is:
    “to meld the classical rabbinic tradition with the best of the modern world.” What “best element” of the modern world contributed to the breaches in tznius, leniencies in hilchos kashrus and Shabbos, and virtual abrogation of limud Torah l’shma, that are rampant in segments of the Modern Orthodox world. Which secular value or piece of wisdom was carefully evaluated, and subsequently hand-chosen for incorporation in the hashakafa of the Modern Orthodox world that has paved the way towards mixed swimming, flagrant physical contact between boys and girls on many different levels, and views, ideas, and opinions about chazal and Torah shba’al peh that borders on overt kefira as understoon by many rishonim?

    Rabbi Broyde, I do not believe you have lived in the Ivory Tower of academia so long that you have so completely lost touch with the reality on the ground, and replaced it with a beautifully painted, idealized, theoretical picture of the movement, the tenets of which you may agree with, but the practical implications of which you lie far to the right of. You are not convincing enough in your arguments to dispel the impression that the elements of the secular world which have become incorporated into Modern Orthodoxy are only those that help people “fit in” to the world around them, feel less out of place, or, most frighteningly, allow them to “give in” to their ta’avos. Please show one instance of a secular value that, once brought into Modern Orthodoxy, have strengthened yiras shamayim, mitzvah observance, ahavas HaShem, or even (and I knew you were waiting for this one) mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro (a quick snapshot comparing the behavior of teens in pizza shops in Cedarhurst and Boro Park on a Motzei Shabbos would show us that teens are teens, and while there are most definitely many differences in their behavior on certain levels, no honest claim can be that Modern Orthodoxy has bred a heightened sensitivity and adherence to wonderful middos or ethical behavior.)

    As to your first argument that throwing the Far Left of Modern Orthodoxy out would not accomplish anything, because it would quickly be replaced by a different Far Left, I am shocked that a person of your stature, intelligence, and respect for dialogue, would resort to such an insulting and demeaning comment. Your argument presumes that the opposition to the Far Left is empty of substance, beyond that they are the just the “farthest away” on the spectrum, and, as such, should be ejected. How dare you? You don’t believe that the arguments are without any validity such that you can level such an accusation? Perhaps what would replace the Far Left would be a version of Modern Orthodoxy led by Rabbi Michael Broyde and other sincere thinkers and leaders, who would advance a Modern Orthodoxy that is more than just the current version’s excuse for “religion-lite.” No one in the Yeshiva Orthodox camp would argue for rejection of a Modern Orthodoxy that promoted deep thought about philosophical ideas, or consideration of ethical issues raised by our engagement in the secular world, while still advocating and insisting upon a serious and committed relationship to Torah, Mitzvos, and Yiras Shamayim. In fact, a Modern Orthodoxy like that would look quite a lot like many of the card-carrying chareidi Rabbanim and even Roshei Yeshiva that I have come to know and respect. The only difference is whether they wear that aspect of their intellectual lives on their lapels and wave the flag of their breadth around so as to earn someone’s respect or to define themselves more by their secular credentials or knowledge than by their chochmas haTorah or Avodas HaShem. We’re not so different than you when you peak underneath the big black hats, Rabbi Broyde. Come back to where you really belong. You’ll always be welcome here.

  43. Tal Benschar says:

    When I was in YU, there was a certain well-known Rabbi, who announced publicly that Hashem had breached His covenant with the Jewish people by permitting the Holocaust, and, accordingly, thereafter all mitzvos are optional. That person was never kicked out of the RCA. I distinctly recall R. Aharon Soloveichik stating publicly that he was embarassed to be a member of the same rabbinic organization as that rabbi. But his words went unheeded.

    Fast forward to the “Morethodoxy” article. WADR to R. Broyde, the issue is not one of “tone” nor is it one of the specific question of the nusach of that berachah. The original article (conveniently erased from the blog — I searched in vain throughout the internet for a copy) was an out and out bizayon of Chazal — accusing them of misogyny and worse. This is not merely bizayon of a contemporary gadol — this is denigration of the pillars of our tradition from Moshe Rabbenu to the present. The Rambam has an apt description of this: makchish maggidehah shel Torah.

    Even the revised article outrageous claims that halakha negates the dignity of women:

    “As I wrote in my original post, I believe fervently that Orthodoxy has yet to grapple fully or satisfactorily with the dignity of womankind. We know and understand, like no generation before us has known and understood, that women are men’s intellectual and spiritual equals. Our society has accordingly decided to treat both genders with equal dignity, and has opened all professional, political and communal endeavors to both genders equally. I believe that our community however, falls short of this goal in many ways. We are, of course, committed to operating within the framework and rules of halacha. But it is not hard to construct a halachik universe in which women’s physical space in shul and intellectual space in day schools and Study Halls are not lesser, but equal. It is not hard to imagine a halachik universe in which virtually all positions of leadership are available to all. And we must create a halachik universe in which the extortion of women by their ex-husbands as the Bet Din stands helplessly by, is simply unfathomable. It’s not halacha’s fault that we are lagging. It’s our fault”

    So here is my question: does the RCA have any red-lines? What does one have to do to be kicked out of it? Blasphemy and openly denigrating Chazal are apparently not enough. Or does anyone who uses the “O” world qualify?

    Turning to the “left wing” and their stated goals of halakhic revision, R. Broyde response, WADR, misses an important contextual facet. Context is important. The gemara in Sanhedrin tells us that be shaas ha shmad even a minhag like shoe laces (arkesa de mesana) is yehareig v’al yaavor. That’s a minhag that no one today even practices! Yet, the gemara tells us that in a certain context, the halakha REQUIRES one to accept martyrdom rather than vary from such a minhag.

    Today we have a group of people who have determined to adopt a philosophy — radical egalitarianism — which is foreign to, and in the view of many (including myself) antithetical to, the Torah. They are then seeking to revise halakha to conform as near as possible to this philosphy. You don’t have to be a mind reader — the purpose and goal of this group is stated explicitly. (see the above quote)

    In that context, the fact that they might be able to find an opinion among Rishonim (which has not been follwoed for centuries) is really besides the point. Their adoption of such an opinion is not because this group believes it is amitto shel Torah nor is their reliance thereon in conformance with traditional rules of psak, such as shaas ha dechak or longstanding minhag. Rather, whatever opinion fits the zeitgeist qualifies. It is that process which many object to and find utterly illegitimate. To compare that to, for example, the Mechaber holding (like the view of many Rishonim) that Chanan does not apply be shaar issurim is really ignoring this basic contextual reality.

  44. joel rich says:

    R’ Yehoshua K,
    To paraphrase one of the great speakers of my time -I have a dream that my MO will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their shirt, but by the content of their character.
    In addition many of those leaders on “the far left” do not fit your description of religion-lite (which btw exists as far as I can tell in all sectors) but are extremely thoughtful in their approach. I do not agree with them but I wouldn’t question their seriousness or commitment to Torah. I say to you “We’re not so different than you when you peak underneath the srugie,R’ Yehoshua K . Come back to where you really belong. You’ll always be welcome here.” (even if you think 6000 years is not the actual age of the earth)
    KT

  45. Tal Benschar says:

    On the other hand I think that the idea that the RCA will take a strong stand on this is highly unlikely.

    I tend to agree for the reasons stated above.

    When the Soviet Union (anyone remember that monstrosity?) was breaking up, I recall at one point that someone, half-facetiously, stated that perhaps Russia should withdraw from the Soviet Union. Perhaps those on the right of the RCA should re-think whether they still belong there.

  46. Steve Brizel says:

    R Michael Broyde responded to my post:

    “To Steve Brizel: You are underplaying Rabbi Lamm’s massive intellectual contributions to our community in his writing and you are also over emphasizing Rabbi Lichtenstein’s criticism, while under emphasizing his role. He clear identifies with Modern Orthodoxy and the reverse too. When the RCA turns to its most senior members, Rabbi Lichtenstein is always on that list as was Rabbi Lamm. I agreed with the second half of your second post, and thought the first half of your second post was of the wrong tone and misplaced in its emphasis”

    RAL’s views on MO are a matter of record-RAL views himself as being insufficeintly RZ in comparison with other RZ and insufficiently Charedi when compared to Charedi RY and rabbinic leaders. As far as my second post, with respect to the views that I summarized, IMO, LW MO refuses to acknowledge that such views are problematic, at the least, or worse verging into what RYBS called “Machish Magideah” or what could properly called Apikorsus or Kefirah. IMO, it is unfortunate that the LW MO views any discussion on the same as the religious equivalent of a witch hunt.

  47. Yehoshua Friedman says:

    R. Michael and R. Yitzchok, you are both awesome! The details of all this skirmish are of course important, but the derech eretz with which you do so is more so. I would hope and pray that your discussion will be a role model for the way these conflicts are carried on in the future, instead of, say, what’s been going on in Beit Shemesh lately. As for the question of whether a rav lives in Israel or the US, Jews keep making aliya and that will continue as life in Israel gets better and life in America gets worse. Modern communication makes physical location not very relevant.

  48. cohen y says:

    while the article from Sept 27,2011 was addressed,the article of July 17 2009 was not addressed.

  49. Daniel W says:

    Yehosuha K. raises the point of “What “best element” of the modern world contributed to the breaches in tznius, leniencies in hilchos kashrus and Shabbos, and virtual abrogation of limud Torah l’shma, that are rampant in segments of the Modern Orthodox world.”
    This is where the conversation turns from the argument on rabbinic positions to what kind of “Balabatim” these rabbis develop. This is indeed a huge challenge within modern orthodoxy, that people are being happy with basic Shmiras Shabbos and basic (read: lenient) Shmiras Kashrus and letting everything else slide. R’ Broyde himself clearly doesn’t live that way and there are many who have learned under him who are much more “Lishma” than that as well. I also do see some light in the rising young professional generation – in secular colleges, where much of Yehoshua’s concerns are fostered, there is certainly a lot of dabbling in less-than-Halachik activities; however, as these people are graduating, entering established communities, and marrying and having children, there is absolutely a settling back into a more religiously active and truthful MO lifestyle – a lifestyle that one might say is now enriched with “the best of Western culture”.

  50. Steve Brizel says:

    R Broyde-WADR, one cannot ignore the many problematic comments of the personae who are considered LW MO rabbincal leaders and academics vis a vis the nature of the covenant between HaShem and Am Yisrael, views of TSBP that view it sexist or akin to a pretzel that can be bent at will to accomodate the Zeitgeist or POVs that view Moshe Rabbeinu and Chazal as great personae but limited by culture and their base of knowledge. Why the same can’t be appropriately categorized either beyond the pale of traditional belief as Machish Magideah , apikorsus or Kefirah simply escapes me.

  51. Steve Brizel says:

    R Broyde-WADR to R D Lamm’s great leadership and scholarship, as well as the appointment of many new RY in RIETS , the decline of JSS, the near closings of BRGS and MTA, and the rise of influence of a Board that had many non Shomrei Torah UMitzvos all occurred during RD Lamm’s reign.

  52. Michael Broyde says:

    To Michael Berger: Thank you for your insight, which is certainly true and interesting. History plays a role, and it is hard exactly to examine when a view is outside of historical Orthodoxy. Is the age of the world out? I think no. Is the absence of Moshiach? Yes. Is the view that on RH we recite the YT mussaf silently and only the repetition is 9 brachot? I think it is out. Furthermore, it is true that there is an enormous social connection between heresy and being merely wrong, but not out of the camp. Consider the following fine example I recently heard. The Ba’al ha-maor is able to suspect one who do not prepare chamin on shabbat (through hatmanah) of being a heretic simply because he lived among some Karaites who insisted that any warm food on shabbat was assur. No one would say that today. I confess that drawing an exact line will prove hard and I do not think anything post chatimat hatalmud is mere minhag – but I think that the historical line is far beyond the contemporary gedolim of the last century.
    To Yehoshua K: I very much appreciate your last few sentences. You asked for “one instance of a secular value that, once brought into Modern Orthodoxy, have strengthened yiras shamayim, mitzvah observance, ahavas HaShem, or even (and I knew you were waiting for this one) mitzvos bein adam l’chaveiro” and I confess that I find many. Fidelity to dina demalchuta is one. Sensitivity to the relationship between scientific truth and halacha is another, and religious Zionist values are another. My decision to be part of a Modern Orthodox community is driven by my deeply held view that Modern Orthodoxy is closer to the ideal avodat hashem than any other broad general communal ideal in the real world. It is far from perfect, as you point out, and I work every day to make it better – but I was unpersuaded the basic thrust of your comment that such is not the case. Nor do I live in an Ivory tower, as you point out, although I confess that when I do go to the Ivory tower every once in a while, it is a valuable criticism of Modern Orthodoxy that is looks much better in the Ivory Tower than on the ground! But, there are many criticisms on the ground to be voiced of every community, some in Choshen Mishpat matters, some in Even Haezer matters, some in Yoreh Deah matters and some in Orach Chaim matters. I am un-persuaded that when all four chalakim of Shulchan Aruch are weighed, Modern Orthodoxy is any less loyal, warts and all.
    One final point, which touches on many comments. Excluding someone from the community is a much more drastic step than rebuking them or noting loudly that they are wrong. Rabbi Adlerstein proposed removing large numbers of people. I “merely” favor rebuking many of those who Rabbi Adlerstein wants to expel. I have a larger membership tent than he does and more patience for rebuke.

  53. Daniel says:

    One final point, which touches on many comments. Excluding someone from the community is a much more drastic step than rebuking them or noting loudly that they are wrong. Rabbi Adlerstein proposed removing large numbers of people. I “merely” favor rebuking many of those who Rabbi Adlerstein wants to expel. I have a larger membership tent than he does and more patience for rebuke.

    Presumably you are responding to the questions of why you do not remove Avi Weiss from your camp, even after you criticize the far-left for not calling him out. To this you say that he is wrong, but you have patience for rebuke.

    Sure, you can disagree over whether it is wiser to expel or rebuke- and that is a large part of the thesis of your article. But, do we agree that Avi Weiss is not Orthodox? (Because if he is, I don’t know why you want the far-left to rebuke him). Or, if we don’t want to call him names, do we agree that his theology is not Halachic Judaism?

  54. Reb Yid says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein:

    Have not other authors and commenters on this blog voiced strenuous objections to the term “Ultra-Orthodox”? Is that how you would like others to describe you, your colleagues, your worldview and your arguments?

    It is disingenuous of you to claim that “these phrases–self-descriptions and depictions of others–are meant neither to shut down discussion, nor to stimulate”. Quite the opposite–while your response should give Rabbis Kanefsky and Weiss food for thought on how to better characterize their worldview, it also justifies a different characterization on your part as well.

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      Actually, I haven’t. Primarily because I can’t offer journalists anything else that works. So I live with it. The only other labels that I regularly hear applied to this group and ideology are “Conservative” and “Reform.” Do you think either would be better?

  55. Dr. E says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein

    To me, there is a semantic difference between a self-described term like “Open Orthodoxy” and one of “Far Left”, ascribed by others. “Far Left” connotes a position on a continuum and as such, its being on the border, might be construed as a pejorative–especially since the other side of that border is another denomination. (not to mention the phenomenon of human nature that self-ascribed labels are always more welcome than those coined by outsiders.)

    I would say that in the context of outreach, most Kiruv professionals (in the Chareidi world) worth their snuff would agree that “Open Orthodoxy” is a necessary posture to take (at least put out the façade of tolerance within parameters dictated by their mentors). To a large extent, there is a common denominator between the Chareidi Kiruv Professional community (as well as Chabad) and YCT Musmachim out in the field—despite the fact that they fundamentally differ in their intended end-game. So, while professionals and amateurs might not use that formal tag-line, they have to also be “open” towards their constituency.

    So much for my comments on language and branding. Moving forward, I would recommend that in addition to you and Rabbi Broyde filing ongoing comments, it would be productive for Rabbi Kanefsky and colleagues to also join this thread (beyond a discussion of semantics) to clarify and/or defend their stated positions on their merits.

  56. Michael Broyde says:

    To Daniel: I think your vocabulary is lacking. I think that a person can merely be wrong on a matter without being outside of the of the Orthodox community generally or outside of Halachic Judaism. Not every error excludes a person from the community.

  57. Yehoshua K says:

    Rabbi Broyde,

    I’m both touched and honored that you took the time to respond to my post, and appreciative that you took the final lines with the sincere affection and respect with which they were intended. I must admit that your response troubles me deeply. I will divide my explanation into 2 parts. One will deal with the structure of your response more than content, and the second will address the specific examples you raised.

    1. Your original claim about MO to which I responded offered that MO is open to taking ideas and values from the modern/secular world and incorporate them into our Jewish hashkafic system, when they will enhance our core value system or move us in a positive direction. (I’m paraphrasing, but not with any intent to misrepresent, nor do I think I have.) I take as a given that what you DO NOT mean is that we prioritize modern/secular ethos or ideas over ours as a starting point, nor do you mean that there exists, institutionally, a desire to “fit in” with the secular world or “be accepted” by them. I hope you would agree that such attitudes would lead a community in a terribly negative direction, with little in the way of internal controls to prevent a rapid decline in religious engagement. You mean something far more subtle and profound. In the same vein of “chachma baGoyim,” you are advocating an engagement in that world and system of thinking, with the desire to cull from it those diamonds of wisdom which either did not exist within Torah, or which we might not have seen with the same clarity as we do through these new eyes. (this is a topic for a different, albeit very interesting discussion).

    I guess where I’m confused is that I don’t see the application of that principal in your example.
    Dina Dimalchuta: What secular value informed the increased sensitivity towards not violating American law? Isn’t the halacha clear that one should be makpid in this area? You’re not saying that we should create a new, expanded and enhanced version of the halacha, just that the MO community has a greater sensitivity towards it (the legitimacy of this claim I will explore below). I’m unclear how this example actually evidences your premise. It sounds like it evidences our rejected claim that “we want to fit in with the Americans” or something of that nature.
    Scientific Truth: Again, here I need your assistance to understand the value the MO community has culled from the modern world. Is the value “Emes?” We don’t need to go outside of Torah to find an unyielding and unwavering commitment to Emes do we? You don’t actually mean to claim that the scientific world as a whole has a greater bakashas haEmes than do Chazal do you? Neither would I assume that you mean to imply an across the board preferring of secular, scientific claims to Emes over the Torah’s version. So do you mean to imply that we should treat scientific claims with respect and seriousness? Or that we should observe and understand the scientific revelations concerning our physical world as a vehicle for informing and inspiring our religious life? Is there any major segment of the community that completely disregards any engagement with the study or the discussions of scientific inquiry? If there is, I’m not aware of what community that may be – it’s certainly not the Yeshiva/Right-Wing Orthodox community.
    Eretz Yisrael: I’m similarly confused. My total disagreement with your claim of a MO superiority with regard to love or commitment to Eretz Yisroel notwithstanding (again, to be dealt with below), what secular value has been mined that has created this growth-spurt in the MO community. And what are the evidences of such growth and increased religious desire? Do you mean that nationalism, as a goal in and of itself, is a value that the MO community has seen fit to adopt as a Jewish value? That would be an interesting dialogue to have. I’m not convinced that’s what you intend, but I truly don’t “get” what you are evidencing with your example of Eretz Yisrael.

    Now, to the legitimacy of the actual claims you are making. I’ll be melamed zchus that responding to endless anonymous posts on CC is not your primary priority and, as such, you can be excused for resorting to cliches and stereotypes in your comments. But I must admit to being truly hurt by of the (unintended) insinuations your examples implied.
    Dina D’malchusa – do you actually have evidence that MO ppl speed less? litter less? go to jury duty more? or commit less petty crime? Or are you making a not-so-subtle reference to media stereotypes about chareidi tax violations (the essential prevalence of, and the greater occurrence of in the Chareidi community as opposed to the MO community totally unproven)? What exactly do you mean by this?
    Eretz Yisroel – This one was really, truly upsetting… this is hard to see as anything other than a misrepresentation of the facts on the ground. On this there is no doubt—prior to Nefesh B’Nefesh, there was a dramatically disproportionate number of chareidi couples moving to EY over their MO counterparts. I would imagine that gap has narrowed now that it’s more convenient to move, but what does that say about one community’s commitment or love for Israel, when they’re only willing to go when it’s made easier and free? The reality is, that smacks much more like a POLITICAL statement that is being portayed as RELIGION. As further proof of that, I will offer the following challenge. If, in fact, this value that the MO community has discovered, has driven them to a greater love for Eretz Yisrael, wouldn’t we see that in more than participation in the NY Israel Parade or Simchas Torah parties at the LaRomme Hotel (I’m dating myself, I know)? Wouldn’t we expect to see that ahavas haAretz in this communities enanced hakpada in mitzvos hataluyos ba’Aretz, Shmitta, kedushas haAretz etc? Please provide some specific examples of where you see a greater religious ferver for Eretz Yisrael from the MO community, beyond some vague reference like “we support the Medina more.”
    Science – I suppose I might have to grant you this one. If you consider the selling-out of Emunah and Mesorah to the current whims of the scientific world without any compunction towards critical thinking to be an advancement of the religious life of the MO community, you’re welcome to it. There are plenty of frum scientists, and plenty of willingness for open dialogue on these issues within the chareidi community. But when the starting point of the MO community is a belief that basic tenets of Emuna can be willy-nilly thrown into the fire without any thought, so long as we don’t have to sit even for a moment in conflict with the most recent edition of “Nature” or “Scientific America” (despite the fact that history shows that these ideas may change by the next edition), that’s not advancement of religious identity in any way I’m interested in being a part of. So, again I ask, what is the value here that is advancing the religious growth of the community and increasing avodas HaShem?

    I come back to where I started. I deeply appreciate your willingness to engage in this conversation, and I look forward to understanding your perspective on a deeper and clearer level.

  58. Josh says:

    Rav Adlerstein, do you I understand you correctly? Are you openly calling Open/Left Wing/Whatever Orthodoxy “Conservative” and “Reform”? Even if you are merely ‘passing along other’s comments’, can you imagine the reaction if someone here ‘passed along’ other’s comments in such an insensitive manner?

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      Was there any indication that I called it that? Any whatsoever? Or are you simply doing what others have accused us of doing – trying to shut down discussion?

      As far as sensitivity, it was not meant to offend. However, the identities of multiple prominent talmidei chachamim and roshei yeshiva – in both the Modern Orthodox and yeshiva worlds – who do openly call the Far Left “Conservative” are very much in the public domain. No secret; nothing new. I deliberately did NOT choose to use that label in my Ami piece

      Readers – please read more carefully before you comment. This should be an object lesson in why CC is a moderated forum, and we turn down many, many letters.

  59. lacosta says:

    one question maybe to be asked is does anyone lose if the tents are drawn smaller .
    haredi judaism writes out anything to its left including MO from normativity [ ie it is ‘krum’]— yet that doesnt keep them from teaching in MO schools, collecting MO money trying to mekarev the MO kids etc … the average yosi on teh street probably could care less, maybe it’sonly teh MO rabbis who have any ax to grind in the derision in which they are, and always will be, held. to the haredi Daas Tora what difference is there between MO or LWMO or farleftMO ? — ham, bacon, and shrimp are equally treif….

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      Since I know you, I will attribute your comments to some cathartic letting off steam. Surely you do not believe what you write. You know very well that there is nuance in both the RWMO and haredi worlds. Lots of people on the right find much in parts of the MO world that they value and support. A reader had to be blind not to detect multiple themes in my Ami piece. It aimed to instruct not only in the problems created by the Far Left, but to correct mistakes on the right about all the positive elememts of MO. The fact that Ami – which tries to be open, but whose readership is still largely haredi – had no problem publishing it should show at least a little glimmer of daylight, no? You can try shutting the door on it, if you want, but I doubt if that is really your intention.

  60. Daniel says:

    Rabbi Broyde:
    I agree, not every wrong excludes an individual. (For example, you think I am wrong, but I hope you don’t exclude me from your community.)
    But, I think it is appropriate to exclude an institution, when the institution stands for ideas which are outside halachic Judaism; and to exclude an individual in his official capacity.
    And also, I think it is important to call an individual’s ideas what they are. So even if Avi Weiss can remain part of my community, I think it is important to declare: “He is not simply wrong on particular issues; his theology is not halachic Judaism.”

    And I may still be “confused”, but I expect (based on your article) that you would agree with my assessment of his theology, even if you don’t see the need to proclaim it from the rooftops.

  61. Meir Goldberg says:

    This entire debate between Rabbis Adlerstein and Broyde drives me crazy. To paraphrase Rav Hirsch, “these men carve little wooden trinkets while the Gauls lay siege to Rome.” While the Avi Chai study concludes that a quarter of all Orthodox students entering college will not remain so upon completion I and any campus Rabbi can tell you that probably close to another quarter will not remain shomer Shabbos even if they affiliate orthodox.

    Don’t they realize that close to 50% of Modox students who enter secular university will not remain be shomer Shabbos upon completion? Anyone who works at Rutgers, U of Maryland, Penn, Brandeis or in the Ivy’s knows this. Ravs Adlerstein and Broyde – You argue about who to keep in the tent, but that tent is quickly collapsing.

    Meir Goldberg
    Rutgers Jewish Xperience

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      I’m not sure I understand the relevance of this. You want those of us on the right to give up the battle to preserve the Mesorah and get to work on college campuses? You want the Modern Orthodox community to realize the great danger to its kids on campuses? (Forget Avi Chai. The report that woke up MO parents to the danger was the Perl and Weinstein report of years ago.)

      Despite the questionable relevance, the point of the comment is valuable enough that we’ll let it through.

      If the point, however, is that Modern Orthodoxy, faced with the dismal stats from the college front, should concede defeat, I think that there are different conclusions that might be more reasonable to expect. When I first began teaching in a MO high school, straight out of a yeshivish background, parents were not interested in YU and Stern. It was the Ivies or bust. As a teacher of seniors, I wasn’t interested in those schools either. After many years of watching where too many MO kids wind up when they leave home, I’ve become a huge booster of both YU and Stern. Moreover, I’ve seen many parents who snubbed YU for their first children turn around and become champions. Pushing attendance at YU and Touro would seem to me a more reasonable response to the crisis than getting MO as a whole to issue some mea culpas.

  62. Baruch Gitlin says:

    I don’t want to try to speak for Meir Goldberg, but I’ll write what bothers me about this whole debate about who is in our tent and who is out. There is so much internal work we all have to do, spiritually, that it almost seems ludicrously irrelevant to have these kinds of debates about who we should reject from our camp. That is why I liked Rav Broyde’s article very much – because it gives a positive definition of what we believe. That is also why I did not care much for the article that Rav Broyde was responding to – because I think issues should be discussed on their own merits, without this constant undertone of what is and is not beyond the pale of Orthodoxy. If Rabbi Kanefsky is wrong, I would rather see a discussion of why he was wrong, not whether he should be kicked out of Orthodox Judaism. I’m not familiar with what goes on in today’s college campuses, but I am aware of an enormous number of young people going off the derech in both the haredi and dati leumi worlds in Israel today. All of this infighting and delegitimization of other groups may not be the primary cause of this, but it ceratinly doesn’t help.

  63. Michael Broyde says:

    To Daniel: I confess that I have no idea what you are speaking about when you write that you think Rabbi Avi Weiss’s theology is not halachic Judaism. I have disagreed many times with specific psakim of Rabbi Weiss and I have even noted that one was “rabbinic malpractice” (see my piece on hirhurim.blogspot about geirim serving on a beit din for conversion) but I have yet to see any broad general theology written, never mind that I think is heretical. Rather there are particular psakim, some of which I think are wrong, and some of which I think are right. But, a wrong psak does not make one “non-Orthodox” either practically or theologically, it just makes one wrong on this particular matter. I have no problem with line drawing when needed, but as a general matter we need to have a category called “wrong” which is not the same as the category called heretical. Consider how to respond to Shelat Yavetz 2:15 concering pelegish. I do not view Rabbi Emden as correct — indeed, he is wrong — but that does not make him outside of halachic Judaism, just wrong on this matter. That is enough.
    To Yehoshua K. You are completely correct that responding to comments is not my primary priority and if I write with haste here it is because I am vastly overworked in my rabbinic life and I do not view replies to comments as publications worthy of very tight editing. We can have a more detailed conversation in private. My email is mbroyde@emory.edu. On one foot, however, what I intended to say is that MO brought to the table much greater sensativities to these values that Orthodoxy previously had driven by our engagement with the outside world. Orthodoxy is still in a somewhat experimental mode with regard to how to live in a liberal democracy with not all of its brances equally adept at obediance to secular law or even to the idea of its obediance. Indeed, the Spinka Rebbe stated this in his sentencing request to his judge, as we all — sadly — know. The second half of your posting is to complex for a detailed reply, but I do not agree with your social read of the facts. We can speak more if you wish in private.

  64. Yitzchok Feldman says:

    I apologize if this post repeats any post from before.

    I thank R’ Broyde for moving this discussion forward.

    I thought there was one glaring failure, however, in the section of loving Tochacha. If one is going to cite, over and over, the Rav, Ztz’l’s, unwillingness to expel R’ Rackman, z’l, from the RCA, one also has to be ready to emulate his willingness to blast and ridicule positions which he found odious. You are an exceedingly humble leader, and by nature I think you lack the Soloveitchik capacity for harsh formulations. But the Rav began his discussion of R’ Rackman’s positions with a true statement about his usual forbearance and nevertheless delivered an unsparing repudiation. I don’t think the leaders of the Far Left, and/or R’ Kanefsky, are open to criticism by most members of the RCA. They have had their fill of sometimes bombastic and ill-considered vituperative. You are one of the few people to whom they might care to listen. I think that creates a Chiyuv, Midei Pa’am, to deliver the goods with something more than “careless” or “imprudent.” This won’t do.

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      I have been saving days-worth of comments for a larger piece I hope to get to in the next few days, but I couldn’t let this go without a quick comment. I too wish R Broyde would be a bit more demanding of those whom he defends. I believe that R Broyde should be more aware of trends and strategies on the Far Left, and not treat all matters so academically. I have to point out, however, that he has been there in the clutch, where the rest of us would not be listened to because we are seen as denizens of a different universe. (Big Tent is an issue only for the RCA’s gentlemen’s club; the tent of the Far Left long ago excluded members of the right-wing MO, and certainly everyone in the haredi camp as far as voices whose views ought to be taken seriously). He was there – in some cases in person – to argue against the Rackman beis din for hafka’as kiddushin, as well as against the ordination of women.

  65. Shades of Gray says:

    I can put myself in the shoes of those in YCT. In July, 2006, a YCT educator published in the Jewish Press(“The Emergence, Role, and Closing of Edah”) seven principles of Modern Orthodoxy and how Edah successfully affected the larger community; to some extent, all of Orthodoxy deals with those points. More recently on a different issue, a YCT musmach dismissed discussion regarding “shlo asaini ishah” as apologetics and wrote that “unfortunately, this strategy does not seem to work well in the Open Orthodox community as a whole…”(Shelo Assani Isha”–A Critique of Contemporary “Bloggic” Discourse”, Institute for Jewish Ideas and Ideals, 8/16/11). I disagree with the author, but the point remains that even after drawing lines in the sand regarding a movement or regarding people, the ideas will still remain up for discussion.

    Even putting myself in the shoes of people in the YCT axis, as above, they need to do the same for others! They need to understand the effect of their actions on the community, which they presumably wish to be a part of, and should take responsibility. Perhaps the difference is a more open discussion of issues, but a little more sensitivity for being part of the community of others on their Right, and also for the term “Mesorah”.

    Perhaps the issue of exclusion should also be framed in terms of laying down certain ground rules which organizations uphold, as opposed to excluding some from the rest of the Orthodox community. If it comes to a certain point and is deemed necessary, the OU could say that a requirement of membership is that a synagogue not have a “Mahrat” or a “Rabbah”, etc. Similarly, the RCA can institute a requirement for rabbis to sign a document regarding certain hashkafic ideas as they did regarding Chabad messiansim, and similar to what Young Israel did. This is still different from ruling on the “gavra” and directly excluding people.

    • Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

      This approach has been discussed for quite some time within the RCA. There are still people in the RCA unwilling to adopt any measure that will lead to the Far Left leaving.

  66. Shades of Gray says:

    “Lots of people on the right find much in parts of the MO world that they value and support. A reader had to be blind not to detect multiple themes in my Ami piece.”

    I thought Ami was open for publishing your piece; my first thought when reading it was that this is how criticism, if it needs to be done, should be written(despite R. Ginzberg’s response, which I thought was valid).

    I was adding that most, if not every idea of “Open Orthodoxy” is something that all of Orthodoxy relates to, or needs to relate to, and is separate from the question of the overall motives of the “Far Left” and the question of delegitimizing the ideology. You referred as well to these two separate aspects in a response to a comment to your original essay:

    “And in time, the arguments must be offered if the battle is to be won…Our first priority is to let people know that the work of the Far Left is treif and fraudulent, and that they should stay away if they are at all interested in Mesorah. Later there will be time for scholarly papers”

    I suppose it’s possible that there were some cathartic element in my comment 🙂

  67. Yitzchok Adlerstein says:

    So that there be no misunderstanding, the Rema and Gra cited by my friend Rabbi Broyde do not in any manner or form address the issue of shelo asani ishah. This could not have been his intent, and I hope that people will not jump and say “Gotcha!”

    There is much discussion about the original and/or correct nusach of the bracha “shelo asani goy.” Some of the discussion deals with other, older girsa’os that are extant and are presumed to have been tampered with by Church censors. Other parts of the discussion deal with the propriety of thanking Hashem for not having made each of us a “goy,” when the term goy is used over 60 times in Tanach in reference to the Jewish people.

    It is in that context that the Machon Yerushalaym Tur opines that the Rema’s girsa was “she’asani Yisrael,” even though the editors argue that the weigh of halachic evidence points to the original, correct, and halachically dispositive nusach being exactly what we have: shelo asani goy.

    The Sdei Chemed does cites Zera Yehosef, who calls she’asani Yisrael the girsa of the Gra. Personally, I’m not convinced. I would see the Gra (Be’ur HaGra to OC siman 46) as simply stating that the girsa of Shulchan Aruch (shelo asani goy) is supported by the Yerushalmi and the Tosefta, but not by Shas Bavli, where Menachos has it as she’asani Yisrael. He is not necessarily siding with it. (Otzer Hatefilos reports that the seforim that the Gra had personal access to where often corrupt texts.)

    Interestingly, the same Machon Yerushalayim publishes a Shulcan Aruch, not only a Tur. Regarding this Gra, it comments that the earlier girsa in Menachos was shelo asani goy, and thus fully accords with Shulchan Aruch!

  68. Michael Broyde says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein is 100% correct, of course. The Rama and Gra (and some others) on OC 46:4 are speaking about whether the proper text of the first bracha is sheasani yisrael (yehudi) or shelo asani goy. The idea that the proper text of the first of the three brachot spoken about in SA OC 46:4 is sheasani yehudi (or yisrael) (and not shelo asani goy) is, in my view, well within the rabbinic tradition, although it is certainly far – very far – from the current minhag (and I do not advocate changing the minhag). It is also clear to me that once a person says sheasani yehudi (or yisrael), as his first of these three brachot, he should not recite the next two of shelo asani eved or shelo asani isha, as the Mishnah Berurah notes in 46:15. As to what was the true girsa of the Rama, this is a complex matter beyond this note that I hope to write on at some point and it addresses halacha lemaseh the question of what bracha a convert should make also, with many poskim thinking that a convert should make the blessing sheasany yehudi (yisrael). See the new edition of the Shulchan Aruch OC 46 hagahot veheorot 33 on page 267 which notes that the edition of the Shulchan Aruch that the Rama first published his haga’ot on had the girsa of sheasani yehudi. By this understanding, a convert should make the bracha of sheasani yehudi (yisrael) and then, as the Mishnah Berurah notes, should skip the next two brachot. Chida 46:9 and Levush 46:5 also both note that a convert can say Sheasani yehudi (yisrael) (after which the Mishnah Berurah rules, no other bracha can be said). It is worth adding, against everything that I have just stated that the Birur Halakha of Rav Binyomin Zilber quotes the Shlah (Page 14, left column, bottom half to the top of p. 15) that the Hagahot of the Rema is, in this case, a fake. But, most achronim adopt a contrary view, even as this hagah is missing from the Mantuba edition of the Shulchan Aruch. This matter requires more analysis than a comment on Cross Currents allows.

  69. Daniel says:

    Rabbi Broyde,

    I see now.
    I understood from your original critique of the “far-left”, where you chided them for being, “bad at drawing lines in its sand and having walls in its tents…” that you were referring to lines, walls, and tents, in the same way you noted that your own walls were “walls should be the wide historical walls of classical Orthodox halacha and haskafa”; that is, the walls of your community. Thus, I assumed you were claiming that the far-left had failed to draw lines, walls, and tents, at the “historical walls of halacha”- by failing to criticize Avi Weiss for ordaining a rabbah, among other things. Thus, I understood that you felt ordaining a rabba was outside the historical walls of halacha.

    I think I now understand that you do not think it is outside the walls of halacha, and is only unwise. However, you think the far-left should draw lines and walls by at least criticizing these unwise acts, as you yourself criticize them. (Thus, you do not mean “walls” in the same way you mean the “walls” of your community.)

    Thank you for clarifying.

  70. Meir Goldberg says:

    Rav Adlerstein and Rav Broyde, firstly, I want to apologize if my comment was too strong or disrespectful. My frustration comes from meeting dozens of students from (left wing) Modox homes who are at Rutgers and hate G-d and Yiddishkeit. My larger point was that we expend so much energy on the Avi Weiss issues, while the real threat to Modox is the fact that they cannot retain significant portions of their youth. (In the American Chareidi world, 5% – 10% go off but according to R’ Ronnie Greenwald 80% of them come back. The same cannot be said for the Modox world – many more slip away)
    Most left wing Modox parents scoff at YU and consider it close minded(as a Lakewood guy, I find that somewhat ironic since I always assumed we had the honor of that title) or too expensive. They insist on sending their kids to secular schools.
    While the OU has placed 9 Rabbis on campus, they often work with the more motivated students, but the hundreds of less motivated students are not reached. The campus mekarvim often can reach them since their job description is motivating the unmotivated, but most mekarvim are afraid to mix them with their group since their attitude to yiddishkeit is toxic.

    We need to figure out a way how to not totally turn these kids off in High School and how to convince the campus mekarvim to reach out to them in University. I am trying to do the latter, but it is an uphill battle.

    This merits at least as much energy and focus as trying to figure out how far the Modox tent extends.

    Meir Goldberg, Rutgers Jewish Xperience

  71. yitzchok says:

    Rabbi Broyde cites the teshuva of R. Yaakov Emden regarding pilegesh as an example of an opinion which is “wrong” but not heretical. I think Rabbi Broyde has opened the door to the dangers of the very approach that he asserts is at the core of Modern Orthodoxy. Pilagshus is not part of normative halachic tradition despite having substantial basis in classic halachic writing. (I am not sure on what basis R. Broyde dismissed an opinion well grounded in Rishonim and Talmudic sources as “wrong” but that is another matter) We live in a society in which pilagshus is the norm for perhaps the majority of couples who are involved in serious relationships.The abstinence alternative has the potential for serious halachic consequences. Would Modern Orthodoxy allow the reintroduction of a practice-not merely grounded in traditional Rabbinic sources but one that was actually practiced- not as a conformity to current societal norms but as a means of preventing more serious halachic problems? Of course the potential hashkafic concerns of kedusha, etc. are non halachic “Daas Torah” issues about which reasonable authorities could differ.

  72. ARW says:

    Meir Goldberg,
    I believe that there may be a strong case to be made that the issues associated with the far left and the problems you see in your day-to-day work on campus may be much more closely connected than you think. In my view two of the things that bedevils the MO world are priorities and boundaries. Either explicitly or implicitly most MO kids are taught that secular acheivment is more important than Torah. They are also given no boundary as to how far they can delve into the secular world. Yeshivish (and right wing MO) kids are taught, “Your anchor is Torah it comes first, bring in no more of the outside world than you need.” Now, “no more than you need” may be quite a bit, especially depending on what parnassa a person chooses. However, in the end it is emphasized that this is secondary to Torah, regardless of the quantity. Any delving into the secular world is done with the knowledge that Torah comes first and that great caution must be mused in the process of exploring the non-Torah world.

    What Avi Weiss and his compatriots on the far left are saying is that view is wrong. They are saying that the de facto view that Western knowledge is superior to the Torah in the MO world is actually de jure and fully justified. It reverses the location of the anchor and puts it on the secular side and says “be careful what you take from the Torah, some of it may be outdated and inapproriate for our times.” This attitude is only going to accelerate the rate at which MO kids leave the fold by justifying to these kids, God forbid, that the Torah is not for their times and sensibilities.

    In short the battle must be fought on both fronts, on a personal level at the campuses and at a philosphical level among the leaders of MO so that they can provide a proper anchor for their children.

  73. Steve Brizel says:

    R Broyde, and all of the subsequent posters in their guest threads IMO should be able to agree on a very simple but profound issue-who is the halachic and hashkafic address for a committed MO, and who is considered the same by the vast majority of MO, aside from the LWMO?

  74. Daniel says:

    “R Broyde, and all of the subsequent posters in their guest threads IMO should be able to agree on a very simple but profound issue-who is the halachic and hashkafic address for a committed MO, and who is considered the same by the vast majority of MO, aside from the LWMO?”

    Really? Why should they be able to agree on that? In fact, why should they want to agree on that?

  75. Barry Dolinger says:

    Dear All,
    I’m a Rabbi at Congregation Beth Sholom in Providence, RI. Just started there and received semicha this summer from RIETS. I’ve been thinking about these issues a lot, and have one point to add. I feel that modern orthodoxy has often brought important ethical issues to the forefront, but not precisely and that the response concerns one of process, and is equally imprecise. For example, A Rabbi could say, “the bracha of shelo asani isha is unethical,” and the response would go, “it’s heretical or at best influenced by feminism.” The modern Rabbi in my argument not explain what exactly is unethical (in this case, it is probably the inherent notion that thanking God for not being a woman implies being a man is not only different but better) and the respondent did not say why feminism is bad or why this particular heresy is incorrect. I realize the case is a little simplistic, but the debate sometimes sounds like this to me. I think we need to have a more serious debate on the merits of an actual ethical issue, without bringing process and other concerns into the equation. Thoughts?

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