A Time to Reach Out

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14 Responses

  1. Netanel Livni says:

    ” The faith in the imminent redemptive process that has animated the national religious community since Israel’s miraculous expansion into the Jewish people’s historic heartland in 1967 has now suffered an immense blow.”

    Not really true to those who know the people we are talking about. Or that know the true nature and nuances of the Torah ideology regarding geula as understood by these wonderful people.

    “At the same time, the community’s sense of itself as the vanguard of Israel society, widely admired as the exemplars of the true Zionist faith, can no longer be sustained.”

    This is true and I believe one of the only positive things to come out of this whole mess. Hopefully this will expose the true common ground that all Jews who study the Torah have and allow the only Jewish unity that is possible in the world. The unity of all who study and practice the Torah.

    I hope that both communities learn that
    a) The chareidi world can not sustain the yeshiva system financially without joining forces with the national religious community.
    b) The national religious community can not keep pushing the mitzvah of Yeshuv Haaretz further without cooperation with the Chareidim. If you add up the mandates (NRP (6) + NU (7) + Aguda (5) + Shas (12) = 30 mandates) that is without all of the Masorti Jews that will vote for a united block. We are talking about the possibility of a ruling party here. What will we say in shamaim if we don’t even try.

  2. Baruch says:

    Netanel,
    I see we think a like I have said the same for a long time but I’ve been told told it will never happen because each party wants to be first. Lets hope that somewhat actually tries to solve this problem.

  3. Hanan says:

    “…to cast the soldiers executing the evacuation orders in the role of Hitler’s S.S. troops, only infuriated secular Israelis.”

    I was hoping that this would infuriate everyone, not just secular Israelis, but also religious ones.

    “We are talking about the possibility of a ruling party here.”

    Im not sure if the religous parties can get along with eachother anymore than the secular ones can. Sadly, when it comes to politics, truth is secondary to corruption, greed and personal agendas.

  4. Netanel Livni says:

    “…to cast the soldiers executing the evacuation orders in the role of Hitler’s S.S. troops, only infuriated secular Israelis.”

    Were the settlers the ones who thought it a good idea for all the Yasam to wear new black uniforms and march up and down the streets of the Gush in an orderly fashion for hours in order to instill fear in the hearts of the residents?

    Who cast who as SS troops?

  5. Micha says:

    Not 100% fair, although I too sympathize with their plight.

    The settler who isn’t being cared for is typically someone whose strategy involved not leaving until they were forced to, not cooperating with the beaurocracy designed to help them. They had 1-1/2 years of warning. Their mistaken emunah (very roughly: faith) was that it was theologically impossible, and therefore they refused to prepare.

    Would the gov’t have given them enough to get on with their lives as seamlessly as possible? Of course not! But they did make things for themselves (and their children!) far worse than necessary.

  6. Netanel Livni says:

    Micha,

    This is not true. Even the minority that did cooperate with the evil bureaucratic machine do not have any real solutions to their situations. In truth, moving the dolphins out of the bay in Eilat was planned better than this crime. What really happened was that Sharon realized that if he took the 2 years necessary to really plan this out, he might have been faced with new elections or worse, a national referendum that he could very well loose. So he pushed forward as fast as he could in the hope that none of the few democratic checks and balances that the state of Israel actually has would catch up with him before his plan is executed.

    Nati

  7. Lee Caplan says:

    Please see the following piece which I wrote entitled “The Key to Our Success”:

    http://www.israelnn.com/article.php3?id=5440

  8. Moshe Feldman says:

    Micha wrote:
    “The settler who isn’t being cared for is typically someone whose strategy involved not leaving until they were forced to, not cooperating with the beaurocracy designed to help them. They had 1-1/2 years of warning. Their mistaken emunah (very roughly: faith) was that it was theologically impossible, and therefore they refused to prepare.”

    Actually, although Sharon broadcast his intentions to disengage 1.5 years earlier, the actual Knesset decision to disengage occurred a mere 4 months before the disengagement. The settlers had every right to hope that the Knesset might not vote for the disengagement (in fact, there were multiple machinations seeking to accomplish that).

    Moreover, the lack of cooperation was not merely an issue of emunah that it would not happen—in fact, many non-religious settlers did not cooperate too. Rather, there was a feeling that by the settlers’ not cooperating, this would encourage their allies to continue to fight the disengagement rather than assuming that there was no more hope.

    Moshe

  9. Micha says:

    Nati, you are correct. The fact that the many made the situation totally unworkable made it impossible to help the few. And of course the Israeli gov’t is a Menshevik beaurocracy, so it wouldn’t have done a great job either way.

    But making it about Sharon’s political manouvering without acknowldging anyone else’s is doing yourself a disservice. Did it not serve the Azza residents’ interests to maximize the trauma involved in the disengagement?

    To take a variation on Lee Caplan’s theme… There are plenty of people who did the wrong thing. Why not look at what we can fix, our own mistakes, rather than look at what we can’t and only increases the hatred?

  10. Netanel Livni says:

    Micha,

    because I believe that to look for our own mistakes at this point would be another version of “beaten wife syndrome.” A woman who was raped does not have to apologize for not preparing enough for what the rapist threatened. The residents had every right to fight this horrible plan by any means they could. The fact that they did not cooperate with the criminals that perpetrated this crime is not a deficiency on their part. Also, any mistakes they did make do not detract from the crime of the government.

    In the end, the only way these people can maintain some semblance of normalcy is by believing that they did all in their power to fight the crime and that throughout the whole episode, the right was on their side. When, BeEzrat Hashem, those who fear Hashem reach power in Israel, then we will give these people the honor they deserve and prosecute all those who were just “following orders” or giving them.

  11. Micha says:

    I’m talking teshuvah, you’re talking blame.

  12. Netanel Livni says:

    I’m saying that while teshuva is ALWAYS a good thing. Perhaps the proper teshuva in this case is to learn how to hate evil and not whitewash the crimes of those who continually perpetrate it. Perhaps hugging soldiers and police who are agents of an evil decree is not exactly the best way to convince the non-religious that you view their actions as wrong and evil. Perhaps the willingness to forgive will be seen as legitimizing the crime.

    Perhaps by calling to stem the natural hatred that the victim feels for offender you blur the lines of good and evil and focus on the hatred as the evil instead of the crime. I have to disagree, the call of the hour should be “Lo nishkach, VeLo nislach” (We will not forget and we will not forgive), anything less would make us loose the only battle we have not yet lost, that of moral superiority.

  13. Yehuda says:

    I try to keep up with the news but must have missed the point at which we Chareidim joined the Mizrachi movement.

    I remember R. Shach stating that even East Jerusalem can be given back for peace. It was about a little over 10 years ago that the Yated Ne’eman was making fun of the settler movement and asking if mitzvas yishuv haaretz is on of the 3 mitzvos that one is obligated to sacrifice one’s life for. Now all of a sudden we’re against leaving Gaza although most level headed observers believe the it’s not feasible to protect a few Jews among million and a half hostile Arabs. And if we do believe that the correct choice is to leave Gaza, why didn’t we use our energies to press the government to do so as soon as possible so that soldiers’ lives are not endangered? Why didn’t we encourage the settlers to cooperate with the government and prepare better for leaving Gaza when the could have cut a better deal with the Government? Why don’t we encourage the government to close other small settlements to save Jewish lives?

    Our whole approach and turnabout suggests that whatever Sharon does is no good, perhaps to pay him back for throwing us out of the coalition a few years ago and cutting off government funds from us. If there is a better explanation, I have yet to see it in the Chareidi press.

  14. Netanel Livni says:

    Yehuda wrote:

    “I try to keep up with the news but must have missed the point at which we Chareidim joined the Mizrachi movement.”

    I try to keep up with the news but must have missed the point at which Rav Shach was the sole representative of the Chareidi viewpoint.

    I remember when the previous Slonomer Rebbe Tz”l encouraged (and the new one still does) the founding of the Chareidi yeshuv of Emanuel deep in the territories. I do not remember any Chareidi Gadol criticizing the founding of Beitar in the hart of Yehuda even thought more people have been killed driving the tunnel road than in Aza.

    The chidush (halachic innovation) of some of the Chareidim that danger to life somehow overrides the mitzva of yeshuv haaretz amazes me every time I hear it. How does one conquer land without loosing life? How does one fulfill this mitzva without mesirut nefesh?

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