Jerusalem, City of Unity

You may also like...

8 Responses

  1. Shades of Gray says:

    ” However, how terrible it would be if because of this we would attack our existing institutions – our living and enduring holy treasure houses”

    In connection with current events, I think MK Lipman is incorrect in making funding dependent upon teaching a core curriculum. I don’t think you can drag the Charedi world, kicking and screaming, over to a certain hashkafah. They have to want to do it on their own and see a benefit in it.

    I wonder, however, what is terrible about the most minimal amount of secular education. One Rosh Yeshiva explained today that introducing limudie chol “is destroying the atmosphere of Kedushah”, unlike in America, where the situation is different. In literal terms of “Kedushah”, I don’t understand. I thought that in Judaism, the point is to sanctify materialism. This concept, I think, is especially taught to Baalei Teshuvah –that Judaism doesn’t advocate as holiness fleeing from the world; if food and marital intimacy can be sanctified, why can’t basic intellectual skills, kal vachomer, also be taught al tahras hakodesh? Perhaps the point is that the subjects are taught differently, Torah, ideally with “trembling” and faith-based, while secular subjects, the atmposphre is more relaxed, and intellectual freedom is valued more. Even one hour of basic math and English skills in this atmosphere, might stunt the growth of potential Gedolim, as it opens the door to a different mindset.

    However, there is still the question of children who are not set out to be Gedolim being negatively impacted, as recognized by Rav Dessler. There is an interesting quote from Dr. Yitzchak Levine about successful American rabbonim voluntarily studying math in high school(although I suppose one might counter that they are relative exceptions as compared to the successes of the Israeli system):

    “[Rabbi Lonner of Torah Vodaas] then proceeded to outline the general studies curriculum with emphasis on the mathematics component. He spoke of the math courses in the ninth, tenth and eleventh grades and of the excellent instructors he always strove to hire. I then asked him,

    “What mathematics do you teach in the twelfth grade?” He became somewhat crestfallen and replied, “What can I tell you, Dr. Levine? It is not like it was years ago, when boys like Rabbi Belsky and Rabbi Steinwurzl would stay after school and attend an extra math class that I taught. It is not like it was years ago.” A friend of mine recalled that when he studied in Torah Vodaath, he and other boys would forgo their lunch hour to attend a calculus course that Rabbi Lonner taught”

  2. dr. bill says:

    Shades of Gray: an entire population not preparing to be able to work may have no legitimacy as a shittah. I am fond of quoting the teshuvot of R. Dovid Karliner. He stressed the need for secular education in Israel, something he opposed in his native Europe. However, even if I were to grant the view legitimacy, does not mean I (or the State) am required to provide it financial support if I oppose it.

    I and many others took 12th grade math with r. Lonner, AH in the 60’s when I attended TV. Note the name – vodaath sounds like maddah, perhaps.

    Rabbi Hauer: Very nice article. As I read, I recalled the brilliant explanation of the response to the rashah, in a recent haggadah by r. reuvain bengis ztl. despite its novelty, it may be pshat!! It supports r. kook’s ztl method of dealing with the non-frum. Ironically, as one might expect, the biography of r. bengis, at the end of the haggadah, did not explain why he did not come to Israel for three years (1932 – 1935) after r. sonnenfeld’s ztl death. As a student of Volozhin, he knew the regard for r. kook that the netziv had. R. kook died in 1935 and r. bengis did not want to lead an opposing (chareidi) community. Given the ways of Hashem, two of R. Bengis’s great grandsons are RY in DL yeshivot in Israel.

  3. Bob Miller says:

    Every strategy has to consider the other players, who also have strategies. There are times when positive engagement as a policy hits a wall because others are against it in principle or for other reasons. Sometimes there is a wall because of a misunderstanding, but other times it’s because of a clear understanding.

  4. cvmay says:

    “It is not like it was years ago.”

    This is an important statement to analyze, the young adults of today (male & female), overall are NOT intellectually curious in any specific subject matter. Even in the world of Limud Kodesh & Limud Hatorah, there are not bochurim who are interested in delving into Nach b’iyon (like Rav Bulman), the Kuzari, Iggres Moshe, Machshava, etc. So it is a definite that in secular studies, they will only focus on what is needed for employment reasons. Females even more so…

  5. Shades of Gray says:

    “However, even if I were to grant the view legitimacy, does not mean I (or the State) am required to provide it financial support if I oppose it.”

    R. Shimon Schwab and RSRH wrote that they were not imposing TIDE on EY, implying that the shittah was legitimate, in their times; Charedim say that they pay taxes like everyone and are entitled to support from the State.

    Following the election of Tommy Lapid, Jonthan Rosenblum wrote in the Summer, 2004 Jewish Action that to take away money from Charedi families was “blind to the magnitude of the human suffering affecting tens of thousands of religious families”. R. Aharon Lichtenstein said last year, “how can a leader encourage his entire community to have large families, when the children are literally suffering from hunger? It is the leaders – not those who are led – who have brought about the situation in which children will not receive an education that will make it possible for them to earn an honourable living…” However, R. Lichtenstein has not embraced MK Lipman’s plan, perhaps in accordance with the quote in this post from Rav Kook that “ how terrible it would be if because of this we would attack our existing institutions – our living and enduring holy treasure houses”.

    Jonathan Rosenblum pointed out in the above article that, “the Chareidi community is by nature an evolutionary, not a revolutionary, one. What changes take place will come in an incremental fashion, primarily generated by pressures from below. R. Aryeh Z. Ginzberg wrote similarly in this week’s 5TJT that , “yes, we do need change, and yes, change will come; however, it will come slowly, without forcing the closing of yeshivos and without removing subsidies from large chareidi families…”

    R. Yaakov Horowitz believes that the Charedi community had a good defense by showing that it was slowly “evolving”, but kannoim have ruined it. He writes that “ Rav Shteinman Shlita fully supported[ Nachal Charedi] not to be for a few hundred at-risk boys, but rather as a mainstreaming process for the many thousands of young men who are not cut out for a full day of learning. The radical kanoim (extremists) in Eretz Yisroel unleashed a vile campaign of hate and intimidation against one of our gedolei hador for having the courage to support a solution that would have been a “win-win.”… This would have gone a long way to sooth the simmering anger of the general population about the army matter that just exploded a few months ago…How different things would be in Eretz Yisroel today if the sage advice of Rav Shteinman was followed a decade ago”

  6. Allan Katz says:

    Maths education- at least 90% of people never use their high school maths beyond the 1st semester in Algebra. Maths is learned by memorization andf practice , not understanding from the inside out.

    high school education – no intrinsic value , except the graduation certificate which allows you to study further

    yeshivah gedolah education – imho for sure equivalent of a B.A and more.

    If the frum politicians in Israel really wanted to help hareidim get work, they would try to find ways so a Yeshivah education has the same recognition in the job market as a B.A in Chinese studies, political science etc

    Those who are familar with the writings of progressive educationalists like Alfie Kohn and Deborah Meier will agree that a yeshivah education teaches ‘ thinking ‘ skills and collaboration needed for the modern economy .Traditional secular education fails badly

  7. Shades of Gray says:

    “yeshivah gedolah education – imho for sure equivalent of a B.A and more”

    In an interview in 2007 with Steve Savitsky on the OU website(“Wordliness and Walls”), Rabbi Dr. Aaron Hirsch Fried praised Touro College’s Machon L’parnasha in New York as “hopeful and encouraging”, for giving Chasidim at ages 25-26, basic English and math skills so that they can go on to earn a degree. However, R. Fried notes(18 minutes in MP3) that

    “many of those young men are very angry now that when they were children or bachurim, when they were teenagers, they not given the skills that they now have to learn when they already have a house of 2/3 kids to support ”

  8. dr. bill says:

    shades of gray;

    you write: R. Shimon Schwab and RSRH wrote that they were not imposing TIDE on EY.

    1. r. schwab’s account of rsrh has been discussed at length by prof. katz zl and yibadeil le’chaim prof. leiman. it is not raised in serious conversation.

    2. rsrh did not claim prophecy and to opine on how he would view israel today is conjecture. and yours is probably wrong in anycase.

    3. tide in some form is a mishnah, not the invention of rsrh.

Pin It on Pinterest