Yadeinu Shafchu Es Hadam Hazeh
After the horror, the disbelief, the shock, the emptiness, I next thought what many others must have.
He had to have been a pedophile. I messaged a colleague, a respected rov, and asked what he thought. I will post it anonymously; I haven’t gotten to him yet to ask to use his name:
I am sure he was, and I am sure he molested many others, and i am sure that there were people that knew and hushed it.
It is time to forever bury the myth that reports of pedophilia can be managed and dealt with by committees of rabbonim, even for a short time. It is time to bury the myth that there is a serious halachic barrier to going to authorities to deal with credible reports of such behavior. Enough baalei halacha have told us that there is no barrier.
Choshen Mishpat 388:12 tells us that those who vex the public can be handed over. Any pedophile does at least that, and poses a danger of doing much more. Moreover, mesirah of a molester exposes him to a safek of danger; pedophiles pose a much greater danger level to many more victims.
It is natural and good that many people were not eager to rush to modes of address that themselves could be too sweeping and harsh, with terrible consequences to people and their families. They thought that various types of modus vivendi were possible. By now they should realize that this is not true. Rabbonim cannot handle the issue. We have enough evidence of this. Failure to take notice of this could have been said, figuratively, to be shefichas damim/ bloodshed.
Today, it is no longer figurative.
It is not a stain on our record that it took time to learn the facts about molestation. Reacting far too slowly is a terrible stain, though.
Leiby’s horrific petirah can save the lives of many others – those who could meet a similar fate, r”l, and those victims whose lives are a living death.
I may still be proven wrong, but the analysis will not change. Parents will be speaking about safety to their children. Whatever really happened to Leiby, the fact is that our kids are often in far greater danger in school, shul and camp than from encounters with detested “others” while walking home.
A great aliyah for Leiby and future nechamah for his family will come from all of us getting serious about molestation.
If your rov doesn’t get it, think of getting a new rov.
Rabbi Adlerstein: Thank you for posting this very important blog post.
Readers: Email this to everyone, post it on Facebook, Twitter, wherever. End this.
Yesterday I saw calls on Facebook for the killer to be executed. A lynching. It may be deserved, but that hasn’t been established yet. Nor do we know that the killer is a pedophile.
While I agree with the thrust of your argument, there is due process in criminal law, and there is due process in halacha. Our outrage should not make us abandon it.
this of course goes against haimish philosophy , which assumes frum people don’t do such unimaginable acts, and klai kodesh al achat kama v chama….
one expects that the response will be to find all kinds of other reasons to attribute—talking in shul, not enough learning, women’s shoes clicking on the pavement, etc — and such matters should be left in teh hands of experts on crime and psychopathology–> namely the bais din or your local rov— rather than facing the grim truth….
Nice post but why the focus on the Rov and Rabbonim. Everyone is empowered to train their kids, everyone has a a phone to report any crime.
I agree with your arguments for reporting child molesters.
The first admonition in the Ethics of the Fathers is be deliberate in judgement. That quality has totally disappeared in the modern world.
Eeveyone jumps on any story to prove one’s agenda without waiting for the facts to be known.
Mr Aron may have been a latent pedophile but as he did not work with children, no one may have noticed that to be accused of hushing it up. Or not.
I literally clapped when reading this. Yiasher Kochacha.
> Nice post but why the focus on the Rov and Rabbonim?
Because it’s those people who are promoting the idea that one should report it to rabbonim before police.
> It is time to bury the myth that there is a serious halachic barrier to going to authorities to deal with credible reports of such behavior.
Rabbi Adlerstein, them’s fighting words. The Agudah’s official policy, stated at a recent conference, is that one should “consult a rabbi before going to law enforcement authorities with suspicions of sexual abuse committed by community members.” See this article in the Forward for details: http://www.forward.com/articles/138131/#ixzz1NQNya8k0
Quote: “Rabbi David Zwiebel, Agudah’s executive vice president, told the conference that even mandated reporters… should consult a rabbi before going to the police.”
I commend you for your brave position and for your demand for a shift in communal attitude. One hopes that your words also be unambiguously directed at those most responsible for cultivating this attitude.
I fear that you are giving me credit that I am unwilling to take, in combatting a problem I don’t think exists.
I don’t go to the Forward for information about a community its staff is not equipped to understand. I do know Rabbi Zwiebel, and have nothing but the highest regard for him. Our views intersect far more often than they diverge. I cannot believe that he would tell people not to comply with any mandated reporting requirements, period.
My understand of his position is that abuse should be reported to the authorities. There is no halachic barrier to this; enough poskim have stated this forcefully here and in Israel. He does believe that people do not always know whether what they have seen, overheard, or been told by a friend of a child is a genuine problem that falls under the mandated reporting statute and warrants triggering the response that will come from the authorities. Parents, teachers, social workers in the non-Jewish world also face similar questions. Those who have access to experienced friends and wiser authorities know enough to consult them to make a proper determination. To the best of my knowledge, Rabbi Zwiebel’s position, and that of Agudah, is the following: Many forms of abuse are clear cut and unambiguous. They ought to be reported to the proper authorities, not to rabbis. Where there is ambiguity, people should check. Check with rabbonim who are experienced, and not afraid to call the authorities. But people should check. (Many years ago, one of our kids went through a period of time when he cried loudly and for long periods of time. Parents call it colic. Who knows? One day, we heard a rapping on our rear window. A strange woman stood outside, demanding to see the baby. My wife spoke with her. She was a pediatric nurse, and had seen much abuse. She kept hearing this crying baby, and her conscience wouldn’t let her remain silent. My wife believed her, and showed her a very pink, plump and unabused baby. She was satisfied, and apologized for the intrusion. What if she had called Child Protection, and they would have pulled up in front of the house, and – decades ago, before they were as experienced, decided to take the baby in, or my wife in? Baruch Hashem, she decided to check before bringing down the full force of authority. Today, he is post-Kollel and has a family of his own. On the other hand, people witness and hear about unambiguous things and decide to take no action, or stifle investigation, or stymie authority. Those people are the heavies, and continue to ruin lives.)
I do not disagree with that position. I could not verify it with R Zwiebel, because he is out of the country and email range – at least to me. I did verify it with others close to him.
Not everyone agrees with this position. Not all who say they agree are willing to actually act on it, when push comes to shove. And too many are still willing to use their power to intervene for a relative or friend and thwart the efforts of everyone else. Those groups were the target of my piece, not Agudah.
Whether or not this proves to be a case involving molestation, your message resonates. Report abuse directly to the police. Rav Elyashiv says this (despite certain misinformation campaigns suggesting otherwise) and most importantly our G-d given common sense tells us this.
We are all bound by a moral, legal and halachic duty to protect our children. To ask permission before doing so is a crime in every sense of the word.
The full correspondence on this issue between Rabbi Feivel Cohen and Rav Elyashiv can be found on the sfjny website
Rabbi Adlerstein is right, but late. Rabbi Michael Broyde and Rabbi Moshe Soloveichik have been saying this for years and all of us knew it was correct and yet, Agudah issued a report saying ask a shayla first. For an excellent short video on this, see the link on the torahmusings website.
I agree with Contrarian. Let us wait patiently for the facts to emerge before reaching impulsive conclusiosn.
That being said, it’s never a bad idea to reiterate the importance of getting serious about abuse, so the post deserves a yasher koiach no matter what.
I would hope that all large Orthodox Jewish organizations would formally bring their policies in this matter into line with your proposal. They need to resolve to go all the way and then do so in practice.
None of us have more than gut feelings at the moment but I would offer a slightly different slant to the horrific episode. Unless the accused was completely strung out,actions like his do not take place on the spur of the moment or in a vacuum. The reports seem to indicate that his co-workers as well as those who knew him sensed that there was something not right about him. I wonder if he had not demonstrated signs of psychopathy that his family or the schools he attended decided to ignore in the hopes that they would somehow disappear with time. One of the most serious problems facing our community is denial – we do not want to admit that we are less than perfect and need professional help at times. We are more worried about the potential ramifications to the shidduch prospects of our children than we are about getting help to those among us who need care. We force our sons into learning programs that are unsuited for their needs, keeping them there so as not to ruin the shidduchim of their sisters! The problem, R. Adlerstein, goes way beyond a mistaken understanding of mesirah. The title of your article suggests that you are at least willing to infer qwho is at fault. I will go one step further and point out the declaration of yadeinu lo shafchu was made by the ziknei ha-eidah and I anxiously await their mea culpa.
Your reaction to jumping the gun is a little different from when Gabrielle Giffords was shot in January. Then your response was to assail those who criticized Republicans for creating a hostile atmosphere when in reality that was solely the act of a deranged individual with no connection or affiliation with any party or point of view. So far, there is no evidence that this man was a pedophile, nor has he had any history of abuse or cover-up (and even if he did, that’s a far cry from dismembering someone). But it’s becoming increasingly clear that he is mentally unstable (he is already claiming voices in his head) with serious psychotic episodes and a history of deranged behavior. I agree with your premise that people should never hesitate to report pedophiles (or any other dangerous wrongdoings) in the community, but your looking to draw evidence of cover-up and inaction from this particular case is flimsy at best.
My reaction had to be different. I didn’t write the piece you are talking about!
Bravo. This has needed to be said by credible voices for some time. I hope this can be the beginning of a groundswell that direction.
“The greatest aliyah for Leiby and nechamah for his family will come from all of us getting serious about molestation. ”
I think that molestation, and more broadly, mental health is an issue here, and focusing on it would be most meaningful. I thought the same when I read that people studied Mishnayos for Martin Grossman’s memory. Mishnayos is nice, appropriate and meaningful in an ordinary case of death. In the case of Martin Grossman, however, it would have been appropriate to get people to study mussar for controlling anger, or to raise funds to help those growing up with a difficult background(as Grossman did), as both are addressing the cause of the crime directly, even so far as to go to back to his experinces as a youngster which may have played a role in what happened later in life.
Here too, as well. One nechama– and outrage to that end regarding under-protection is appropriate– is to protect the public from known molesters, through the American justice system. At the same time, a profile is emerging of a psychotic and deranged individual, for which the justice system will kick in and prosecute. However, reports said that those who knew him in the community thought Aron was merely “strange”. Levi Aron’s personality most likely took years to develop(part of the shock is that he attended yeshivos and shuls like anyone else in the community), and focus should also be on prevention, to the extent possible. R. Tzvi Hirsch Weinreb recently wrote in the Jewish Press(“What’s Needed In Orthodox Leadership”):
“In my role as rabbinic liaison to the network of Jewish mental health professionals known as NEFESH, I have a constant opportunity to be in touch with psychotherapists, educators, and social workers who see these problems first hand and who confess to me that they’ve become overwhelmed by the scope and intensity of their caseloads.”
If personalties such as Levi Aron and Martin Grossman, which were also mental health-related even if they were extreme and rare, had been nipped in the bud earlier, perhaps needless tragedy could have been prevented.
1. The community often votes for those soft on crime. (I personally know chassidim who voted for Obama.)
2. Wasn’t it just a year ago that many thousands were defending a vicious murderer like Grossman?
Rabbosai, what is it that I’m not getting?
Wow!! Talk about jumping to conclusions. I usually love everything R’ Adlerstein writes but this seems like it came out of the oven just a bit early.
I know many victims of abuse and even some people who have abused. Not every person who has abused a child is a pedophile. Pedophilia is a psychiatric condition. Many people do very bad things without necessarily suffering from pedophilia.
I don’t have any idea whether or not the murderer was a pedophile but if I was a betting man I would put a few dollars on him being psychotic. Very few people can murder a child in cold blood and come in to work like nothing happened. When someone is psychotic it is not necessary for them to also be a molester, he may have had some other psychotic motivation for the kidnap and murder.
Most people reading this blog would probably concur that a lack of awareness of the extent of molestation in society (orthodox included) is a big problem but confusing it up with this event can potentially harm the greater cause of increased awareness and protection.
One more point.
Before all the facts come out a title of “Yadeinu Shafchu Es Hadam Hazeh” is “premature” to put it mildly.
This is true. I regret using that title. It was conceived in haste. It may very well be that other explanations of the murderer’s behavior emerge. We are, however, guilty of spilling other victims blood, even if it turns out not to be true in the case of Leiby. That conclusion, alas, is not premature but overdue.
As a fan of much or almost all of what Rabbi Adlerstein writes and says, i was disappointed by this. By connecting the issue of molestation to this case you may have weakened your argument. Perhaps it will come out that he was a pedophile, but all the evidence in so far seems to point to a mentally unstable individual. I watched the interview with his wife and she, after divorcing him, was SHOCKED at this -so out of character for him. It may have nothing to do with pedophilia and a lot to do with mental illness. The jury is still out….
I hope I haven’t weakened it. The best fit of his behavior remains that of a person planning molestation. The police statement that no evidence of molestation have been found does not change this. The murderer simply didn’t get around to it.
As others have pointed out (and I am not going to publish the many comments, both critical and supportive, that make the same points as different commenters have already made), my point does not rest on what ultimately turn out to be the facts. We are all groping for meaning, for lessons, for tikunim. We are worried about the safety of our kids. Part of that worrying should be to examine more carefully what halacha really has to say, to dispel some of the myths, and to reject some rabbinic voices. I don’t think that there are too many, but they create much doubt and confusion.
It may be that he wasn’t a pedophile, which is what the initial reports are testifying to at the present moment. However, what it does seem to be is an intense mental illness such as schizophrenia. iy”H This event will be a catalyst for the Jewish community at large to a) be more vigilant of this illness due to the consequences of it and b) *begin* devising a solution for these people. Unfortunately, I have seen communities let these individuals roam around the neighborhoods. These individuals can be violent at times… just because they refuse to take their medication and what can we do about it?!
one should report it to the rabbonim before the police. the laws surrounding sexual offenders in this country are VERY strict, and even just having a suspicion of untoward behavior attached to your name is enough to permanently destroy your life.
if every hysterical mama ran directly to the police, some innocent people would be destroyed as well. the rabbonim’s duty is to filter out the hysteria and report the real offenders to the police. clearly they have not been doing so, and instead cover up even real pedophiles.
Obviously a fair trial needs to be given to the man suspected of murdering that innocent little boy. But I think that focusing on that aspect of this horrific story is a smokescreen designed to turn the focus of our attention away from what matters most, namely the almost incomprehensible level of pure, sadistic, cowardly evil that makes up this worst of crimes. Part of me worries that the antisemites of this world will use this case as somehow proof that our religious Jewish communities are no better than anybody else, and that therefore the concept of our being G-d’s Chosen People is now negated. But then I remind myself that as important as it is for us Jews to live up to our role as G-d’s Kingdom of Priests, that even more important is to turn over and over again in our collective minds the extreme evil nature of this act. Such an act simply cannot be tolerated among any society calling itself civilized; how much more that is the case in a neighborhood like Boro Park. If the suspected person in question is indeed guilty of these heinous acts, then he has lost his right to live and needs to be permanently removed from our world. Part of me regrets that I cannot fully feel the tragedy and sadness that the boy’s family must be experiencing, but another part of me knows that my sensitive nature would never be able to handle it. My heart goes out to them. I am so sorry.
The Police Commissioner of the New York Police Department has stated at a press conference that there was no molestation in this case. The Police Commissioner also stated that the victim and his killer never met before and didn’t know each other. The police further stated, the suspect has no previous criminal history, molestation or otherwise, other than a misdemeanor public urination ticket from a year ago.
Honestly, nothing could have been done differently in this case. This person could not have been incarcerated or even involuntarily institutionalized as he has zero history that would legally allow the authorities to do anything.
So, frankly, this case does not advance the point you are trying to make.
The achdus that Klal Yisroel shows in times of stress and the emunah peshuta of the father who can honestly say that Hashem has given and Hashem has taken and thanks for 9 years and mean it, is inspiring. I have to agree that the young man who shot Gabrielle Giffords and the man who murdered the little boy are seriously mentally ill, psychotic. They both don’t seem to grasp what they did. They hear voices Mental illness is hidden in our closeted world because of shiduchim. A lot of dysfunction is covreed up because of shiduchim. This muder is no more an indictment of our frum community than the shooting of Giffords is an indictment of Arizona. Thre poor mother, she will never be the same, May Hashem help her and the rest of the family. In this case, emunah peshuta is a blessing that may save their sanity.
I agree fully with Rabbi Adlerstein’s sentiment. I have wondered aloud to those who might listen,
“what is it about commendably spending your entire lifetime solely in Torah scholarship that prepares you to skillfully and effectively respond to the mental illnesses, criminality and other deeply troubling and difficult challenges presented by a few “frum” Jews? Certainly those who have received intensive secular training in these matters and who deal with them every day are much more qualified and likely to effectively respond in assisting the ill and protecting society from the dangerous. Your refusal to report to the authorities has led to one disaster after another and it is only getting worse.”
Further, with Rabbi Adlerstein’s perhaps premature use of the term pedophilia, I am afraid that those who he correctly rails against will use this single, non-essential point out of his fundamental message to invalidate the whole of what he says.
“I wonder if he had not demonstrated signs of psychopathy that his family or the schools he attended decided to ignore in the hopes that they would somehow disappear with time. One of the most serious problems facing our community is denial – we do not want to admit that we are less than perfect and need professional help at times…I will go one step further and point out the declaration of yadeinu lo shafchu was made by the ziknei ha-eidah and I anxiously await their mea culpa”
The view from Beit Shemesh must not be very illuminating because it contradicts the facts in this case. I live quite close to the accused murderer and he’s been a known problem for years. All the neighbors kept their kids far from him and he never made it through the Jewish day school that he was originally in. He has been on the fringe of yiddishkeit for years and can hardly be termed an Orthodox Jew even though lately the yarmulkeh was there more often than not. He has received abundant professional help but there’s little even the best psychologist can do with someone who is deranged. The problem is that being deranged does not mean someone is also stupid and in this case it happens to be that Levi is rather brilliant and this is how he has managed to get around for so long. He’s more than capable of doing plenty of things and he worked diligently at his job and did well.
The Ziknei Ha’Eidah owe no one anything in this case. While much remains to be done in our community regarding educating our children against molesters and prosecuting them, Levi and this case fits none of the stereotypes that everyone would love to see validated.
people here are raising good issues and i am proud people are getting the point. But i am a bit upset at this last post by *thgphd* he states and i quote :“what is it about commendably spending your entire lifetime solely in Torah scholarship that prepares you to skillfully and effectively respond to the mental illnesses, criminality and other deeply troubling and difficult challenges presented by a few “frum” Jews?” end quote. Also he has a point there that we should have skillful people on this matter. We need to know that in all times our Torah scholars our holy manheegim always knew better then all the *intensive secular training* and sure those ra-bunim that are hiding the truth are not what i am talking about but to put it in such a general way as he did is unYiddish, we should find those good rabunim ones we can trust ones we know will do what the Torah wants not follow the political ways and we should follow only them as their syata dishmya and Torah way is better then your intensive secular training of course
100% agree with R’ Adlerstein regarding reporting of pedophiles – and it is already way too late – in the 90s there was a notorious case in London, where a Haredi family had this terrible experience, and they did go to the authorities, when the Haredi mob gathered outside the house of the victim family – much like the mob of Sodom gathered outside the house of Lot.
In the terrible and tragic case in Brooklyn – it is not clear yet what the motives of the perpetrator were. He is obviously a psychopath and sick mental case that is deserving of the death penalty.
Yasher koach, Rabbi Adlerstein. Leiby’s tragic end might be the wake-up call that our rabbis need to finally speak to authorities when they suspect sexual abuse, whether or not Leiby’s abductor and murderer actually abused him sexually. The Jewish community must demand this of their rabbonim. Unfortunately, many rabbis will still have to face Hashem in the afterlife and explain why they chose to cover up sexual abuse and other such misdeeds.
R’ Adlerstein: there are things that fall under molestation that don’t leave any physical evidence, such as inappropriate fondling. The only way you’d know is if the victim told you what the molester did to him.
About time we learned this lesson. I think the cost has already been high enough…
Even if everyone knows someone is a “problem” and even if everyone knows he’s mentally ill, what exactly can be done about it? The authorities are not going to lock up every – or indeed any – deranged individual just because he’s strange or creepy.
We do not have a clear picture of what happened, and what didn’t happen in this case. We do know that in other cases, people have been reluctant, believing that all contact with the police is mesirah, to report suspicious and even damning behavior. Will the next Levi Aron r”l think twice if the police visit his home to tell him that he has been reported for suspicious behavior, and is being watched? If that is possible, shouldn’t we try to make sure it happens?
and he’s been a known problem for years.
My son was a classmate of Levi Aaron in a well-known yeshiva during his elementary school years. Even then Levi presented poorly. He was very quiet, “stinky”, and disheveled, which sadly lent itself to his being victimized, bullied, and beaten up by less than tolerant sixth-grade boys. I’m not ready to make this a Columbine-like case, because it seems the mental illness that threatened to overtake this tortured soul was lurking many years before this horrific event took place. No one can say whether his being bullied put him over the edge. But as long as lessons to be learned are being put forth in both this article and its comments, perhaps a word about schools needing to be more vigilant about bullying, and more protective of those who present with victim-like qualities, should be made.
Dear Rabbi Adlerstein,
When it turns out that he was not a pedophile, that he had no history, will you apologize to the rabbabim you attacked?
Certainly not. The issue is not whether he was a pedophile or not, but whether we are protecting children or only pretending to do so. The only people I was aiming at were those who either never allow going to the authorities because they inaccurately see it as forbidden mesirah, or those who cover up for their relatives, friends, donors and employees. No apology is due them.
Dear Rabbi Adlerstein, well said. What a shame that it took this type of wake-up call!
“I do not disagree with that position…Not everyone agrees with this position. Not all who say they agree are willing to actually act on it, when push comes to shove. And too many are still willing to use their power to intervene for a relative or friend and thwart the efforts of everyone else. Those groups were the target of my piece, not Agudah.”
This strikes me as a reasoned and responsible approach to things. Would it not be fair to say then that your article, which substantively is of great importance could have been articulated in a more cautious/nuanced fashion. As currently worded–and as underscored by your closing sentence–your article can easily lead readers to interpret your position as being a proponent of ALWAYS and IMMEDIATELY calling the authorities (a short perusal of the blogs that have already picked up your article will confirm this). The same article could have been written in a less absolute, albeit perhaps less sensational manner, which in the long run would have achieved more for the cimmunity at large–your words after all do have wide-ranging acceptance in the orthodox world.
While all acts of child molestation should be reported, there are always the cases of the innocent authority figure who is the victim of false accusations. Your article appears to sanction the sacrifice of such an individual (however rare an occurance) in order to achieve the overall goal. I doubt that is your true intention and if I am correct, perhaps a clarification is in order.
I think it has already been clarified.
“I’m not ready to make this a Columbine-like case, because it seems the mental illness that threatened to overtake this tortured soul was lurking many years before this horrific event took place”
That was my point too. If in hindsight, his personality, devoid of feelings, incubated for years and then exploded years later, then a constructive result of this story is to study his case history in yeshivah as well, and see if such people could be helped at a young age. This is true despite the fact that the law needs to judge Levi’s culpability, and that the nature of the case engenders zero public sympathy(even from the criminals who jeered him).
David Mandel of Ohel was interviewed today on the Nachum Segal show(probably available online in the archives)and said that only an infinitesimal percentage of the mentally ill population end up like Levi Aron. It’s not as if being destroyed by bullying, for example, will result in what Aron did and who he became. Yet at the same time, a preventative focus on helping others who suffered as he may have, is something constructive and might be directly related to this story.
As my head keeps wandering away from work onto the tragic event that happened to Leiby Kletzky z”l, and new information that keeps unfolding, I’m very troubled by the reactions of our own community.
Calls for asifas and tshuva are time honored means to stir our purpose and duties of life. Yes, we were supposed to reflect on the recent passing of the three aged gedolim. Yet, most of us went on and about with our lives and the dim memories are merely a spot among so many other things happening all around us.
However, the ‘key message’ we ought to derive from the Leiby tragedy is that Hashem sent a powerful wake up call to the community at large to open our eyes to the dangers lurking in our own neighborhoods with heimishe pedophiles. Results as what happened with Leiby come about from years of inner disturbance and festering in the minds of child molesters.
It begs everyone to cry out loud – Why aren’t the leaders of the community in one act of unity stepping forward for a call of action to change the way we handle child molesters? Asifas for tshuva are important but let this tragedy be exclusively dedicated for one single lesson and purpose: STOP CHILD MOLESTERS BY REPORTING THEM TO THE POLICE.
It’s so sad to see respected people walking around with blinds on their eyes failing to see the handwriting on the wall. Every single rav should take this opportunity to darshen publicly in his shul and come to grips with reality by saying that the times we live in call for a departure from the past approach of hushing things up lest we all be a partner in crime of “shfichas domim” rachmono litzlon. It’s time to act now!
Rabbi Adlerstein, You write: “To the best of my knowledge, Rabbi Zwiebel’s position, and that of Agudah, is the following: Many forms of abuse are clear cut and unambiguous. They ought to be reported to the proper authorities, not to rabbis. Where there is ambiguity, people should check.”
Let’s be clear: using words like “clear cut” and “unambiguous” contribute to the problem. it allows the very situation you are trying to avoid. state it the other way and it becomes helpful. if you are suspicious of the claim of abuse, consult with a professional psychologist and let him make the next decision. otherwise, call the police. given the obfuscation of some/many rabbinic leaders, we are in a situation, where for at least a while, we must not try for the shvil hazahav. even within our orthodox society, we have competent professionals who are better trained than rabbis to deal with cases of significant ambiguity.
You write: “Check with rabbonim who are experienced, and not afraid to call the authorities.” Until one creates a registry of such rabbis, (approved by some reputable process,) it is highly unlikely that the average person would know whether a particular rabbi fits that description. any trained psychologist, even if one were to insist on one within the orthodox community, is a far more practical choice.
i also wonder about the practical percentages. i assume 90% to the authorities and 10% to a competent professional. otherwise the problem does not begin to be addressed.
I don’t think it would take very long to compile such a registry.
It is not helpful to ignore that in some cases, there are halachic issues about cases that do not require mandated reporting, but perhaps should still be reported. Not all professionals will agree about these cases, either. Halacha cannot be ignored, not does it have to be. I disagree about the shvil hazahav. I think it is doable, just as it was done here in LA.
I will meet you half way. If I had to refer a concerned citizen in another city whose rabbonim I did not know, I would call several frum professionals with experience in these issues. I would only call those whom I knew to be solid bnei and bnos Torah, with unstinting devotion to halacha, and some advanced Torah learning. BH, we have men and women like that in most cities. I would ask them for the names of rabbonim in their city who know, understand, and have dealt with the issues, and are not afraid to refer to the authorities.
I cannot believe that LA is the only major city blessed with such professionals and such rabbonim
Yashar Koach, Rabbi Adlerstein!
“I cannot believe that he would tell people not to comply with any mandated reporting requirements, period…Many forms of abuse are clear cut and unambiguous. They ought to be reported to the proper authorities, not to rabbis. Where there is ambiguity, people should check. Check with rabbonim who are experienced, and not afraid to call the authorities.”
If so, Rabbi Zwiebel’s position is illegal in New York. Mandatory reporters are mandated to report directly even if their suspicion isn’t clear cut and unambiguous. All they need is reasonable cause to suspect a child is abused.
I think that all you have done is shifted the semantics. Now we have to decide what “reasonable cause” is. Knowing Rabbi Zwiebel, I find it hard to believe that he would advocate anything remotely suggesting illegality. I assume that his bottom line is that when in doubt about this “reasonable cause,” consult someone who can help you make the proper decision.
I don’t know the NY statute. In California, mandated reporters have a full 24 hours to file a report. Child Protection has a hot line to help people determine whether or not they should make such a report, and they often tell people that they should not, but continue to keep their eyes open. I don’t know why it should be any worse for people within that 24 hours to ask rabbonim who have worked with Child Protection in the past, and have demonstrated their non-reluctance to go to the authorities. Perhaps I look at things through rose-colored lenses, because in LA we have a group of rabbonim who have worked so closely with child protection agencies that they enjoy mutual trust and cooperation.
We are all shaken to the core by this tragedy, but that does NOT mean we should lose our sense of proportion. Remember:
1) Levi Aron was on the farthest fringes of orthodoxy. Yes, we cannot use the “True Scotchman” fallacy to exclude him as an orthodox Jew on the basis of his act. At the same time, it is also true that he is nowhere near a typical example of an observant Jew.
2) Even if he is or was orthodox, he remains one man out of many hundreds of thousands. In the cold light of statistics, he does not even exist. Introsepction is a fine thing, but we have no obligation to reconsider the historical reality that we are NOT a murderous community. There will always be exceptions.
3) Pedophilia may have nothing to do with this case. In fact, as I write this, it is believed that it was not a factor in this case. It is very wrong to use the passions engendered by an emotional case to promote one’s own agenda. Already we are seeing legislative calls for “Leiby laws”. As any attorney can tell you, nearly every law named after an individual is almost always hasty and ill-considered, intrusive, and more harmful than good.
4) Finally, you make it seem as though it were univerally agreed that “pedophiles” – which I note you have not defined – should be reported to authorities. That is not the case. Rabbis on the right and left have spoken of the US penal system in terms of mesirah. Rabbi Michael Broyde, for one, has publicly questioned if one has the right to turn over Jews to prison, knowing the horrors of the so-called prison system. And there is no shortage of rabbis on the right who believe this, de facto if not not de jure. I am not saying that authorities should never be invoked, nor am I saying no one should be sent to prison. But the approach you adopt – “Call the cops on ’em” – is overaly cavalier and short-sighted. You dont seem to realize that often the “authorities” only makes things worse. I have seen too many courthouses where families use that same approach to resolve disputes, and it almost always ends in regret. Authorities, whoever they may be, might be called, but only as the very LAST resort possible, a big bideived. Your proposals fail to consider this.
Being a curious blend of half-yekke by birth and litvak by training and temperament, I was moved to check on the accuracy of the report above about Rabbi Broyde. Given the fact that we have collaborated on some writing and I consider him a good friend, it was not a difficult thing to accomplish. This is what he wrote:
This position is cited by me in my article on mesirah in the name of a smattering of achronim, but it is not accepted there by me or by most achronim as correct. Halacha lemaseh, such a view is not correct and should not be followed in my view. An accurate recitation of my views, which mandate reporting cases of child abuse, can be found at the Torahmusings site, in the December 2010 archive, where I state directly that:
First, it is completely proper as a matter of halacha to promptly report child abuse allegations. A person who engages in child abuse is a danger to the community and reporting such conduct is not a violation of the rules of mesirah. Reporting such abuse to the police is absolutely consistent with halacha.
Second, it is right as a matter of common sense to promptly report such issues to the police. There is no need to seek rabbinic license before making such a report to the police. Such reports to the police should be made as soon as possible and expert therapists, social workers and other professionals should be welcomed into our community to help address the consequences of child abuse.
Third, it is good for the Orthodox community to promptly report child abuse to the police. A policy of promptly reporting all cases of child abuse to the police makes our community much less likely to be the victim of such conduct over the long term. People should have no fear of social stigma in filing such reports to the police, and anyone who stigmatizes those who make such reports is assisting in a terrible wrong in our community.
Furthermore, I note that “This is true even if the child will be removed from his “Orthodox” home where abuse is taking place and placed in foster care that is not Jewish. See Abraham Sofer Abraham, Nishmat Avraham Volume 4, pages 307-11 who quotes responsa from Rabbis Auerbach, Elyashiv and Waldenberg in agreement on this point, that one must report cases of child abuse. No alternative view is quoted in this enclyopedic work.”
Rabbi Adelstien, Thank you for this heartening article, addressing an issue that has frustrated and enraged me for years. Could you please publish a list of Rabbis and/or poskim who have come out with a p’sak that one must report a pedophile to the authorities?
Thank you for your important work.
I regretably do not have such a list. But see my comment below on how to generate one.
The murder of an innocent child in our midst is a shattering experience for everyone in the community, on one level or another. One reaction is to “do something”, and not let this moment pass back into complacency. R. Adlerstein’s call to action to protect our children from possible child abuse is an overdue declaration that could very well have been made public long before this murder.In light of the absence of evidence that any molestation took place, I’m not clear why R. Adlerstein decided to come forward now to address this pressing problem. But before we go any farther let’s pause for a moment.
How many people remember Columbine, the high school in Colorado where two teenage boys went on a killing spree, murdering seven before killing themselves with their own weapons? Immediately afterwards there was an enormous national (over)reaction with all sorts of editorials commenting about the terrific danger of violent boys just waiting to explode and murder, expert panels set up to formulate recommendations to deal with the “crisis” of teen rage, & demands that every teen who exhibited even the least bit of aggression – i.e., virtually all teen males – should be assessed for their potential danger to society. After the passing of some time when the subject was examined more carefully it became clear that Columbine was not a benchmark of some larger problem. In fact, it turned out that teen violence was actually lower than in the past & the event was extraordinary.
There is an awful lot of speculation about the characteristics of the apparent murderer. I’m not going out on a limb to guess that he is a severely disturbed individual, and has been so for a very long time. Maybe people knew about his condition & behavior but didn’t share that information. Maybe he’d been under professional care, with little success. That doesn’t mean a different approach would have prevented this particular tragedy from happening. MOST seriouly disturbed individuals are not a threat to others or themselves. Only a very, very small percentage engage in some violent acts. To look at every oddball in the community with fear & suspicion would be a most unfortunate response to this great loss. To assume any adult who interacts with children is a potential molester is a sure-fire way to destroy a community.
Anyone who accepts the premise that Hashem directs our lives clearly recognizes that the death of this child is something we must understand as a call to us. Precisely what we are being called upon to perceive & change may take more time, tefila, & guidance to comprehend.
I knew somewhere I would read that Aron was bullied in school. I know of other kids who were previously mild, good students, whose lives were completely changed by being bullied, even to the point of fantasizing harming the bullies.
“He had to have been a pedophile. I messaged a colleague, a respected rov, and asked what he thought. I will post it anonymously; I haven’t gotten to him yet to ask to use his name: I am sure he was, and I am sure he molested many others, and i am sure that there were people that knew and hushed it.”
Rabbi Adlerstein, please explain to me why your lines do not qualify for character assassination before any credible information from credible sources became available that the suspect is a pedophile?
I surmise that by now, I am persona non grata with Cross-Currents. But you owe an answer to your readership.
Character assasination of a confessed murderer?
It would be a really nice start if this issue now gets at least as much publicity as rescuing Martin Grossman, Jonathan Pollard and Mr. Rubashkin.
I don’t think one needs to have any psychological training to appreciate the fact that failure to prioritize this issue will also create a deep sense of cynicism regarding Orthodox values (if it hasn’t already) which will cause irreparable damage.
The NY Post has a story about a neighbor of the accused murderer of Leiby Kletzky who says that he tired to adduct her son but she scared him off by screaming I was shocked at the negative comments on the web site of the NY Post. This frum lady was accused of being a liar who manufactured the story of gain her 15 minutes of fame, of not having reported this incident to the police because she was too busy watching Ophra Winfrey,etc. The commnets have no redeeming merit and anyone can write any foolishness . I happen to know the woman who is a Chasishe woman who never watched Ophra in her life and I do not understand the mentality of those who condemn someone without knowing anything about them.
In time, we will find out who exactly this Levi Aron is and why he did it. We will also find out if he was shielded by communal omerta, as some bloggers say or never suspected of such behavior.
Today, my barber told me that he heard that Levi is not really Jewish, he is a gentile who just hung around Jews. This is the kind of denial that we need to avoid.
Mental illness leads to aberrant behavior and psychotics do not live in the real world. If Levy murdered Leiby because he was worried about getting in trouble, why is he so lacking in remorse and seemingly oblivious to his guilt. The bottom line here is that sick people can do horrible things.
Once the mentally ill were no longer incarcerated in institutions but left on their own , society left itself open to murdrus psychopaths . If we had better mental health care in this country, we would have fewer psychopaths free to murder.
I am glad to have read your responses to comments, not just your original post. I admit that I was taken aback by the article, as it assumed that this murderer is a molester, and lead many to accuse the Agudah of harboring him. These fictitious accusations undermine the authority of gedolei Yisroel, and may account for much of what we observe as off the derech teens for whom we modeled the rejection of authority.
I see these dramatic and tragic events as experiences from which we must learn lessons. We will hear many of these in the coming days and weeks. The obvious one is the educating of children regarding strangers. Inasmuch as there has been complete failure to connect this killer with pedophilia, I believe that we need to omit this issue from current discussion. It is a serious topic, but this is not the address. I also feel we need to avoid throwing pet peeves here, as many seem to be doing. I include cell phones in shul, tznius (men & women), and tefilo betzibbur. Each of these has its merits, but the messages are not absorbed to the distance between the event and the call for change.
My pet peeve is the achdus needed among Klal Yisroel. We have so much open machlokes it is scary. Try the chassidic factions within Bobov, Satmar, Viznitz, and the yeshivos such as Ponevez and others. We need to be told directly, not generally, that it took tragedy and horror to bring us together. Since many of us boycott simchos because of these political bendings, only horror and open fright can get us to huddle together with achdus. Klal Yisroel proved that achdus is possible. It take such terrible events to make that happen?
I must protest use of the Forward as an authority on the “frum” subject. They have been totally inaccurate and disgraceful in their coverage of molestation in the frum community. I suppose their rag has entertainment value, but I would rather my frum children read Superman comics than the lies and bizyonos that characterize their approach to the frum community.
“Perhaps I look at things through rose-colored lenses, because in LA we have a group of rabbonim who have worked so closely with child protection agencies that they enjoy mutual trust and cooperation.”
That’s an issue to focus on: how to apply the L.A. model elsewhere, and what challenges there would be to applying it. Part of the complication might be the diversity and the size of the NYC community, with some Chasidic communties taking a more stringent stand on Mesirah, so it would be harder to unite in one organization(there was also the fiasco with Dr. Benzion Twerski being scared off Dov Hikind’s task force in a mafia-like way by unknown people). In the lack of an effective organization as in LA, and if Mesirah is observed more stringently, internal policing is perforce necessary, hence, the Daily News report this week of the NYC Shomrim keeping tabs on 15 suspected molesters.
On the positive side, Dr. David Pelcovits was quoted in the Jewish Week a few months ago that:
“Even in the most insular communities, there’s some signs of the loosening of the knee-jerk kind of denial or failure to act that may be coming from fear rather than really getting it. I’m finding when the dialogue really gets going, there seems to be a genuine willingness to try to act, to try to get therapy for the victims, to try to do more than they have in the past in terms of the perpetrators, so we’re hoping.”
“Character assasination of a confessed murderer?”
Yes. If Levi Aron turns out to be a delusional psychotic who cannot be held responsible for his actions, neither by legal nor halachic standards, then he ought to be viewed as a wretched, pitiful soul & not some evil monster. We just don’t have the information to arrive at any definitive understanding of his psyche or intent. This very lack of information has created a phenomenon whereby he has become a Rorschach test for people to imprint their fears, anger & frustration regarding the dangers to children in our world & the perceived failure by our leaders & institutions.
We’ve seen this hysteria before. The aftermath of Columbine is just one example. At the time every “expert” & talk show host had an opinion about what caused that tragedy. It probably generated more programs on bullying prevention than ever, before or since. But 10 years later we learned that the two teen killers were never bullied, were nothing like what we were told at the time of their actions, & absolutely no extrapolations could be made from their lives to teens in general.
Taking an unambiguous stand on protecting children from abuse, raising the community’s awareness about the need for sympathy toward & acceptance of the mentally ill, & appreciating that there are many others who are also in need of our advocacy are all worthy causes in their own right. Attaching them to this child’s murder is unnecessary & misguided. I don’t know what we must learn from Leiby Kletzky’s death. I hope we learn it soon before more tragedy occurs. But I believe it is yet to be understood.
As an aside, contrary to one poster’s observation the mentally ill are not murderous psychopaths. Very few are violent. The “mentally sound”, as a group, are far more dangerous.
I would like to make a point here that I don’t think has really been covered. In many of the more insular charedi communities, there has always been a state of permanent denial. Children are taught by their parents that “Jews don’t do these sorts of evil things.” Even after this most recent murder, I heard things said like, “Levi A. was not really Jewish” or “If you could trace back his roots, I’m sure you would find that Levi A. was really part of the Erev Rav.” Enough. We need to come to full grips with the fact that evil people exist in every religion and society. Whether one society has greater or lesser percentages of evil is absolutely irrelevant. We need to fix our society, not try to compare the numbers. It pains me to say this, but when molesters and abusers in our own community consistently are swept under the rug, a direct consequence is that children are taught that they can trust a stranger as long as he wears a yarmulke. An 8-year old boy who would never get into the car with a bare-headed stranger, will nevertheless get into the car with a yarmulke-clad stranger. Why? Because he has never been taught that frum people can also be dangerous. I don’t blame his parents. I do, however, recommend some serious soul-searching among those elements of our community who, instead of publicizing the molesters and being open about the fact that our community is not immune from pedophiles, instead denied the problem exists, which in turn denied parents the ability to warn their children properly. Whether or not Levi A. himself was a molester is not really important. What is important is that only by publicly “outing” the molesters will the community begin to open their eyes and create the tools with which to protect our children.
I really could not care less what mental state that Levi Aaron was in when he murdered and dismembered Leib Kletsky. I care about the child who was murdered, as well as for the family of the victim, who have now become victims themselves. By definition, anybody who would do such a crime, has to have something very seriously wrong with him emotionally, so does that mean that such people never have to face any punitive consequences for their actions? People who murder should be put to death, both because it is what they deserve, and because it is only way to make sure that the murderer never harms another innocent human being again. Should all of us feel a collective sense of guilt over what happened? Probably not, because the man is a complete maniac, and we can hardly be blamed for not having his mindset. But we are made culpable, if we do not see to it that this monster never sees the light of day ever again.
Re Dovid 2
That is very funny. Suspecting that he is a pedophile might be considered character assassination??? Please. Does that mean you still think Levy deserves some respect as a human being? Do we still have to don l’kaf zchues him, even though he butchered a child??
Re Someone in the Know
You are the one harboring ignorance about why kids go off the derech. They go off the derech because their neshamas are troubled by the child molestation that torments them, and they are in agony from the blatant cover-up by their families, neighbors and rabbis.
Yitzchok Adlerstein: “Character assasination of a confessed murderer?”
Yes, rabbi, character assassination. He confessed to killing at cutting the body but did not confess to sexually molesting the boy. It may turn out he did that too, but at the time you wrote your piece you couldn’t have known. You wrote: “He had to have been a pedophile. I messaged a colleague, a respected rov …” You even wanted to strengthen your point by tell us that others (a respected rov) also holds like you. The confessed murderer has his plate full. Please explain why this is not slander. Let’s not add other crimes to what he already confessed.
What bothers me is that your inference overshadows the many valid points that you and Rabbi Dovid Landesman have raised, which should be addressed by competent and responsible individuals in our communities.
L. Oberstein: “This frum lady was accused of being a liar who manufactured the story of gain her 15 minutes of fame, …”
Police investigated her claim and didn’t find it credible. She said Levi Aron tried to abduct her son, but it turn out she didn’t see his face at the time. There were also no witnesses to the incident and she didn’t report at the time to police. L. Oberstein, if you were either a dayan in bais din, or judge in a civil court, how much credence would you place in this woman’s testimony? And what does her being “a Chasishe woman” have to do with the story? Would that strengthen her credibility? Why didn’t you add that she had blue eyes, or that she makes three kugels on Shabbos Chanuka that falls of rosh chodesh?
I would like to suggest something that I know will not be well taken:Perhaps we should be giving a more critical look at the mental health professionals who work in our community to see if they are really up to par and doing an effective job.As a neighbor of the accused commented above he DID in fact seek help from psychologists.
In every case of major mental illness,kids at risk, divorce etc. involving people under forty that I am familiar with the people involved did in fact seek professional help at tremendous personal(financial and other) self sacrifice.They were NOT in denial due to concerns about Shiduchim or stigmas.But “seeking professional help” did not produce the hoped for results.And through the grapevine I see the lack of promised results as being the primary reason people drop out of therapy after starting.
dovid2: “But until then, you and I should stay quiet.”
There is one more thing we all should do. In a time when such unwarranted evil took place in our community, let’s do unsolicited acts of chesed to people around us. A word of warning, though: They should be done to benefit the other, and not in order for us to feel good and/or to accumulate mitzvah points. We shouldn’t turn the other into a chefetz shel mitzvah. Often a good word, an encouraging smile, a ride or favor done with a smile and sincere good will to help the other go a long way. Who knows when was the last time Levi Aron heard a good word addressed to him. A commentator in this thread related he was perceived/described by his class mates as “stinky”. Is that a way to talk or think of another Jew, even if he is hygienically chalanged.
We are all fragile. Some are more than others. I davened in Brooklyn in the same place for five years. No one besides the gabai ever talked to me. A friend davened and learned in the _________ minyan in Brooklyn for more than 20 yrs. No one talked to him throughout this time. This is not acceptable. And it destroys our neshama. If one doesn’t have other outlets, one’s mind may snap.
I commend Rabbi Adlerstein for his courage to bring up the issue of going directly to the authorities with reasonable suspicion of a pedophile..We do not know yet all the facts in this particular sad case.Rabbi Adlerstein is fortunate to live in LA where the Rabbonim have direct relationship with child protective services.
However,in the Torah journal Yeshurun,volume 15 with Teshuvot of the major poskim in Israel,they almost all state to first go to a Beis Din or Talmid Chochom under all circumstances.
I further recommend to listen to the Agudah conference on child abuse at the daattorah website on May 16 to draw your own conclusions also about mandated reporters.There appeared to be much distress about this issue.Further on daattorah on June 2,there is a critical analysis of the conference.The need for poskim and mental health professionals to collaborate together cannot be overemphasized.
I don’t have the Yeshurun in front of me, but my recollection of what they wrote is more nuanced. They did agree that there is no issue of mesirah in going to the authorities when necessary, which is the most important ruling to keep front and center. They recognized the sakanah to many people involved, and the effect that molestation has on its victims. They are concerned that false and incomplete charges can lead to a triggering of automatic responses by legal authorities that wreak havoc with the lives of innocents. This is a concern that cannot be flippantly dismissed. Now the question is what to do about that concern. I don’t know what the situation is in Israel, but here we have decades of expericence showing us that the answer cannot be “ask a rabbi.” That is no more satisfactory an approach than a person who finds out that he needs a urologist badly decides to simply call one listed in the Yellow Pages. You need to go to people who can do the job. Most rabbis cannot, because they are inexperienced, unable to cope with pushback pressure from relatives and other rabbis, etc. We know that beyond any shadow of a doubt. The only solution that I can see is either the LA approach of a Halachic Advisory Board that works closely with both professionals and legal authorities, or a short list of rabbis who are both experienced and courageous, who can be identified by a group of talmidei chachamim together with mental health professionals. There are cases that are unambiguous and do not need any consult; all others can be brought to such a board or member of a short list of rabbonim in a speedy manner in which no valuable time is lost.
I haven’t listened to the Agudah recording yet, but plan to BEH. From conversations I have had with others, I do not believe that anything was stated that was aimed at mandated reporters. The session was given for parents and laypeople, who are never mandated reporters. You need to be a professional acting within the practice of your profession to uncover evidence that mandates a report. In a very, very small number of cases there might be a conflict between what the law demands and what halacha allows. I do think that the conflict is overrated. Child service agencies themselves are not overly eager to pursue pointless and incomplete leads. Working together with them, rabbonim can create a modus vivendi for the occassional case in which a parent hears a child state something ambiguous, and a principal now has to decide what to do. Those who believe that all non-Jews are Cossacks are not going to trust this, but this is not where the vast majority of our community is.
Character assassination of a confessed murderer
There is no mitzvah to judge this person favorably. Anyone can commit a crime and then plead insanity. On one hand, you must be crazed to kill, on the other,this should not give you a free ticket so to speak. There is EVERY reason to suspect him of molestation. In cases like these, you ought to assume the worst. “Innocent until proven guilty” is a goyish concept. The Torah takes on another model- how about the Isha Sota? We assume the worst, publicly humiliate her in fact, even allow HaShem’s name to be erased to see if she is in fact innocent or guilty. Stop being such “rachmanim” its misguided.
To Syma (July 18, 2011 at 1:58 pm)
A dayan doesn’t assume, guess, or speculate. He investigates. This is not rachmanut. This is not phony frumkeit. This is din. This is Yiddishkeit. Tzedek, tzedek tirdof. Else, it’s perversion of justice. If the suspect is found guilty, he should get it all the way. I am for the death penalty for premeditated murder. But only if it was proven in a court of justice, and not contrived on blogs, or urged by crowds that want to make a display of their phony righteousness through the promotion lynch-style justice.
And “Innocent until proven guilty” is not “a goyish concept” but a righteous concept. Lady, you don’t know how good you have it. If you don’t like what you call erroneously call “goyish concept”, go and live in China or Sudan. Like you, they don’t believe in this “goyish concept”. You will be running back crying.
With regards to the sotah, review the parshah and hopefully you will see how off you are concerning both the details and the big picture.
By now I am sure that you are aware of a audio recording circulating on the internet in which a voice identified as R. Shmuel Kasminetsky speaking a few weeks ago, states repeatedly that individuals must not go to the police with information about abuse with out first consulting a rav, who in turn should investigate the matter and consult with other rabbonim. Now this may be a fake, but that is a davar she-efshar le-varer. If not intentionally or not you have just attacked R. Shmuel. The speaker in the tape clearly falls into the category of those rabbis “who dont get it” in your words. Will you stand by your words if this tape is confirmed?
I certainly will, because I certainly did not mean R Shmuel shlit”a. R’ Shmuel was not at his clearest in this presentation. You can tell that by his hedging about mandated reporting. He was not up on its parameters, so could hardly be giving the definitive last word on his position. I don’t want to put words in his mouth, any more than you shouldn’t in mine, but I believe that he just meant to emphasize that the decision to report should not always be made without taking into account the wisdom of experience. I am not going to repeat once more whom I had between my cross-hairs; I’ve said that clearly enough. It did not include R Shmuel, the Novominsker, or others – even others whom I might disagree with. I will BEH try to speak to R Shmuel personally, but it will probably have to wait till the next time I am in Philly. If he did mean “ask a rabbi,” – and at the moment I can’t believe he would say that – I will try my best to argue that the average rabbi is in no position to add any light, and time has shown is likely to do the opposite. In those situations where there is ambiguity and the need to ask, only rabbis with significant experience and working in concert with professionals should be consulted.
That said, if you want me to affirm that if R Shmuel said that I am wrong that I will publicly say “I was wrong,” consider it affirmed. Everyone needs one or two Torah personalities to whom he defers. In my case, I can say that about two people, and one of them is R Shmuel. (I would have to hear it from him in person, though, with a chance to offer opposing arguments.)
Our obsession with the suspect, why he did it, what we should do to him, is our defense mechanism to do nothing about ourselves, AND not to address the ills of our community. If one thinks Levi Aron is the problem and that once we finished him off, we have no more problems, such a person killed Leiby the 2nd time. Suppose the suspect didn’t molest the child. Does it mean we have no child molesters in our midst who get away with it? Suppose he did after all molest the child. Does it mean that our community identifies and takes care of the mentally ill in a competent and caring way?
Have we started doing things differently since the news about Leiby broke out? Are we davening differently? Would we dare walk into a board meeting 20 minutes late? But 20 minutes late b’kvius for shacharis is OK? Would you dare have your cellular telephone ring during the board meeting? No? But in shul is OK? Have we done an unsolicited act of kindness in a concealed way (chesed shel emmes) for no ulterior reasons but to benefit the recipient? If anything above sounds schmaltzy to you and you think it has nothing to do with you, then you are the problem and not Levi Aron.
Rabbi Adlerstein I highly respect you.
However I listened to the Agudah audio.Near the end of Rabbi Gottesman’s lecture there is discussion about mandated reporters.It is better not to quote others and decide for yourself.That is all you had to say.With regard to the Torah Journal,Yeshurun,I only spoke about the issue of going to Rabbis first, because that was what your main article was about.I was not giving a summary of the entire journal.Of course it is very positive that they state there is no mesirah when there is “raglaim ladavar.”
With regard to automatic responses by legal aythorities that is not the general case.First the case may not even be accepted by the child protective services or social services.And then even if investigated it is up to them to decide ,if there is a case to send to the legal authorities.This is similar to what you have stated about their reluctance.
I still haven’t listened. But assume you are correct. What is it that you would like me to say or clarify? It is not clear to me. I think that I have made my position clear in some of the other comments.
The mistake you are making about the Ishah Sotah is that she is publically humiliated because she is guilty….guilty of having gone into a private room with a man that her husband warned specifically not to. The erasing of Hashem’s name and the drinking of the water are to determine if she did the worst. Innocent until proven guilty is a Torah concept that is obvious to anyone who has properly learned Talmud Bavli, Seder Nezikin. How it may or may not apply in this case is for another discussion.
Another thing: The more serious the punishment if found guilty, the more we look for a zechus: The Torah says “Vehitzilu Ha’Eidah” “The Beis Din should try to save his life” This means that in capital cases we look for whatever possible zechus in order to not be required to put the defendant to death. We come up with methods of interviewing the witnesses that make it virtually impossible to actually mete out the death penalty in Beis Din. According to your logic we should do whatever we can to give the death penalty because the accusation is so serious. Don’t get me wrong: Levi Aron admitted to killing Leiby but if he really is mentally ill and if he really was/is not capable of rational decisions do you think he should be treated as an evil murderer or as a dangerous mentally insane person? The purpose of the witness(es) warning a person before he commits an aveirah is to ascertain if he really knows what he is about to do and what the punishment will be for doing it. Only when he has verbally responded to such a warning with a clear response “I know what is wrong with it and I know what punishment I will receive for it but I am doing it anyway” then we have witnesses who can testify against him for the transgression. I do not know how this would all play out in this case but I do know enough to know that it is not as cut-and-dry/black and white as you may want it to be.
3 points: 1) Leaders have an obligation to be clear. 2) Ambiguity has a downside that is often overlooked – it might lead one to believe that the issues involved justify a more nuanced response. 3) While shabbat mode ovens, for example, get unconstrained condemnation, the kavod of rabbis who have, based on their daas torah, protected accused pedophiles does not permit such condemnation.
When a house is ablaze, a measured response does not mean that one should carefully analyze the amount of water to be used.
All I meant to point out was, it is ok to assume the worst in someone who has done the worst. If the guy killed and butchered a kid, I think its a safe assumption that Rabbi A made. I don’t think one is obligated to Dan L’kaf Zechus in this case. That is all.
The question is setting up a practical system that will work, as opposed to “ask your Rav”, which is theoretical(in Lakewood, a Rav was vilified for going to the police, see “Honoring the Badge”, on this blog), and did not relect any practical response or position of Agudah. The Forward report before this incident, quoting R. Zwiebel, referred to a database of rabbonim(‘… Agudah is “looking into developing, at least internally, some sort of database” that could be useful under such circumstances’). That takes time to develop(even D.A. Charles Hynes told Nachum Segal on the radio last Thursday that he was aware of the “mesirah” controversy in the community), but I think that now there will be more practical guidance.
R. Berish Freilach, the Jewish liaison to the NYC police, was interviewed last night on the Zev Brenner show, and mentioned that “things are definitely going to change”, referring to meetings to be held with school principals. Another speaker in Teaneck called it “our 911”. It reminds me, in part, of “Pilegesh b’Givaah”, where the shockingly graphic nature of what transpired was what caused an upheaval.
Over the past several days, there were publications in the print media that are not just alarming, but smack of some of the worst hatred from within experienced in our history. It is without question that our “establishment” has failed in the past, where offenders were protected, the public left to risk of additional victims and offenses, and victims ignored and revictimized by the system. We all know that, and many can cite specific experiences. However, it is dishonest to claim that nothing has changed. Much has changed, and the progress of the last few years has been remarkable. I know that saying anything positive will not please the fanatics (activists) whose agendas are only anti-chareidi, not protecting children. But so much has moved forward that anyone honest must recognize it.
Perhaps the recent tragedy will give a shot in the arm and accelerate process. I’m not so sure, since it was unrelated, and there is much activity going on behind the scenes, without the coveted media coverage.
I must assail the lies perpetrated by the JW and others who repeat the shkorim. The community reacted to the missing person issue with seamless cooperation between the agencies, public and private, and I verified this personally, beyond the media statements. The journalism that pushes another picture is hatefully dishonest. I wish these baalei aveiro would re-examine the achdus that dominated those painful days, and recreate it in their future activities. Meanwhile, I return to the words of Dovid Hamelech in Tehillim where he asked for the mouths of falsehood to be forever silenced.
unless i am missing something, the agudah position has neutered the position of go to the authorities where there are raglayim le’davar. for example, say raglayim ledavar is 75% certainty. then you still go first to a rabbi even at 75% to determine if in fact there are raglayim le’davar? when do you go to the authorities? 90%? 95%? in that case raglayim le’davar is inoperative.
if i am interpreting incorrectly, will someone please explain!
Child Abuse Victims are ruined for life! Please take this more seriously.
U.S. Olympic skier Jeret Peterson takes his own life 7/27/11
“As a child growing up in Idaho, Peterson was sexually abused by someone he would not name, Sports Illustrated said. In 2002, the magazine wrote, he spoke about the experience at a fundraiser for an organization aimed at child abuse prevention, telling a young audience, “If you think you deserved it, I promise it wasn’t your fault. I know because I’ve lived that feeling for a long time.”
We have to do a better job of policing ourselves and eradicating molesters and abusers from our community. The path usually taken has been to deny , to conceal and to blame the victim. I wonder if there are statistics as how many children at risk, drug addicts, etc. were molested. You may think what I am about to write is off the subject, but bear with me.
The way the DSK case has disintigrated shows something. If you are rich and can hire really good attorneys who can find any kind of “shmutz” about the victim, you can cancel out the truth of the attack and get away with it. The poor woman told the truth about the attack but she had other things in her past that made her less than pure . The poor cannot win over the rich , a good lawyer can get people to look at the flaws of the victim and ovderlook the truth of her testimoney. This is even more true in the orthodox world where a rebbe, a respected person is believed over a little child, whose oswn parents can’t accept the horror of facing the truth. Power trumps truth and this is true in the goyishe world and in the Yiddishe world also.