“No Haredim Enlisting Anymore”

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10 Responses

  1. la costa says:

    the government must work with the Haredim to pursue a mutually-acceptable solution, rather than trying to dictate terms.

    —- or, Lapid will continue on his own terms , and increase haredi poverty from the merely crushing to unbearable levels ….

  2. Moshe Dick says:

    Dear Rabbi Menken!
    You are beating a dead horse. The new law is in effect now and there is absolutely no chance of it being changed or repealed anytime soon. It will take a lot more than a few months of implementation before any changes will be considered. I know you have been on a mission in demonizing the authors of the new law but it is on the books for a long time.

  3. Yaakov Menken says:

    R’ Moshe,

    I’m on a mission to address a pragmatic reality. Lapid’s method is not working, he did it in divisive fashion, and Rav Baron does believe it can be reversed “anytime soon” and replaced by something that the Gedolim and the government can both accept.

    People can complain about how unfair it is for yeshiva students to be exempt while they study, but the bottom line is that it is the deal that Ben-Gurion made. It is true that Ben-Gurion did not envision how large the Charedi community would grow, but the Chazon Ish did have that vision, and also knew that his focus wasn’t merely the State of Israel, but the continuation of millenia of Jewish survival. Again, pragmatically speaking, continuous and uninterrupted study for those so inclined is not something the Gedolim will sacrifice — and Ben-Gurion chose to work with that, rather than rail against it.

  4. c-l,c says:

    Fool me once -shame on you
    Fool me twice- shame on me

    Good people fell before for rhapsody of Lapid’s Kiryat Ono speech and ‘ what we value more than life’ is bleeding badly because of it,with more coming in the pipeline!

    Words are often meaningless and cheap-and dangerously deceiving.

  5. Aharon says:

    I can understand why the Haredi leadership resisted changing the policy but why hasn’t an alternative been offered? It may be true that Lapid’s tactics aren’t working, but we can’t keep maintaining the status quo.

  6. Ari Heitner says:

    Aharon,

    Had the new draft law only included financial incentives/disincentives to enlist and against staying in kollel, and had it been implemented with the cooperation of the Haredi parties (who sat on the committee), the existing trend towards increasing enlistment, increasing enrollment in career-oriented post-high school programs, and increasing acceptance of both of the above in the Haredi community, would have presumably continued. While there were and are rejectionist streams, the mainstream of Lithuanian, Chassidishe, and Sefardi leadership (i.e. Degel, the Adudah, and Shas) were on board.

    Even had the Supreme Court ruled that without criminalizing failure to meet draft quotas, the law would be unconstitutional, and thus forced exactly the same de jure outcome, the de facto environment would be entirely different. Lapid could have visited the gedolim, expressed his dismay, smiled his politician smile and said, “I wish the Supreme Court would stop messing with us – I certainly didn’t want to hurt you,” and gotten exactly what he wanted without ruffling everyone’s feathers.

    Instead, now Lapid has united the moderate leadership with the zealots, and made this into a holy war.

    It would be funny if it wasn’t so sad.

  7. Menachem Lipkin says:

    Not only is the bill fair, but it bends over backwards to cater to the needs of the Chareidi community. (If anything the people who should really be upset with Lapid are the secular people who voted for him on his promise of “equal service”… this bill is anything but.) Not until the irrational acrimony surrounding its passage has fully died down will we have a chance to properly assess its effectiveness. Also, much of the infrastructure needed to support the bill is not in place yet. Any judgement at this early stage is premature. Reasonable people will give it a reasonable amount of time before passing judgement.

    [Clearly you and the entire Rabbinic leadership of the Charedi world, plus a large segment of the DL world, have very different ideas as to what is “fair.” In my view, reneging on a deal is never “fair.” But I guess that’s just me. — YM]

  8. Moshe Dick says:

    Dear Rabbi Menken!
    Maybe the problem is the different views of klal Yisroel. You mention a certain view (virtually kollel for everyone)that is in direct opposition of centuries of jewish history.This debate has been rehashed time and time again and is at the root of the present situation.

    [Obviously, times have changed. –YM]

  9. Yossie Abramson says:

    [Obviously, times have changed. –YM]

    So why do you object to changing the deal with the Chazon Ish?

    [Are you honestly comparing an internal change based upon circumstances, to one side unilaterally reneging on an agreement? I wonder in what other case you would claim that’s less different than day and night. –YM]

  10. LOberstein says:

    I have spoken to Israelis in the know and they feel this is a temporary blip. The economic conditions are forcing a change in the status quo. Many chareidim want very much to get training and earn a decent income and support their families-things which elsewhere are considered normal. Right now,there is social pressure and group intimidation that is not sustainable in the long run. That,at least, is the answer you would receive.
    There are all kinds of programs to train people. Adina Bar Shalom has said that half of the chareidi men drop out because they just aren’t prepared for math,English ,etc and can’t hack it.
    There are several programs just starting for Anglo children whose parents have made aliyah which offer high school Bagrut but the key to all of these programs is to keep it quiet-don’t ask don’t tell .
    As we know from the US, Don’t ask,don’t tell is only a stop gap bridge to acceptance .I think the lead will come from olim from the West who realize that they cannot force their children into an Israeli chareidi mold and expect them to all adapt to a lifetime of living that way.

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