Yerushalayim Shorts

You’d think that it might be kind of thrilling to participate in an event occurring for the first time in over 3300 years. It really wasn’t so much. Reflecting on the irony of its occurrence, however, does point to a bit of the divide that separates us here in Israel from our concerned and caring brothers and sisters in the US and elsewhere.

After the debacle of the meraglim, Hashem informed the Bnei Yisrael that they would need to wait forty years before entering the Land – one year for each day that the spies conducted their mission. Moreover, they would not enter until their generation died out during that gloomy period. According to Chazal, each year people would lie in graves on the night of Tisha B’Av, the anniversary of the night they rejected the Land and cried in their tents. They would anticipate that Hashem would use that anniversary to fulfil his promise that they would gradually die out over the forty years. Until the very last Tisha B’Av, some people would in fact remain in those graves, while others rose, to repeat the same macabre ceremony the next year.

This year in Israel, a great many of us re-experienced those events. There was great fear that the Iranians would deliberately target Israel on Tisha B’Av. Those fears were inflamed not only by the buzz of the frum street, but by analysis in the press, both in Israel and abroad, that Tisha B’Av was going to be Iranian D-Day. We literally went to sleep with the thought that we might not get up in the morning.

Baruch Hashem, the night passed uneventfully, and we were relieved and grateful.

We received many messages of concern from chutz l’aretz, before it became clear that the attack had been delayed. But we were also aware that our well-meaning brethren thousands of miles away just didn’t have the same skin in the game. There was no way that they could. And not that any of us here would have been willing to trade places, and miss out being with the People and the Land in its time of need.

********

A friend of mine is an inveterate believer in engaging entirely secular people, trying to explain haredi positions one person at a time. It takes courage, and a bit of a thick skin. While sometimes the dialogue is fruitful, at others it can be demeaning. The paragraphs below belong to the latter group. They were written by a former high-ranking executive in a major Israeli company.

I’m afraid I won’t have the time or the ambition to argue all your claims. There is an unbridgeable gap between our worlds.

I believe that the Zionist majority that still exists here should launch a massive continuous institutional campaign, that directly targets young boys and girls from the Haredim sector, encourages them to take their own path, provides them temporary homes and shelters, helps them with mental aid and general education + Bagrut, establishes preparation training for military service and academy and more. Money will be raised from the wealthy private sector with a clear goal to free at least 500,000 youngsters from the chains of the Haredim communities and turn them to be Zionist productive Israelis. Whether they keep their faith or Mitzvot will be their individual free choice but at least they will have a choice which they lack today. The Haredim society should be dismantled from within otherwise Israel as a Zionist state is not sustainable.

This is an idea that I’m promoting among many business and social leaders. I might succeed and might fail. But I know with all my heart that this is the most important Zionist action in our time.

I thank you for trying to illuminate your way of thinking. It just strengthens my way of thinking.

It is a sad and sobering read. It should inform those of us who look to charedi leadership to show a genuine interest in letting the rest of the country know that they, too, are looking for solutions, and do not regard themselves as a nation apart. While the sentiments expressed are not held by the majority of those who call themselves secular, there is plenty of deep-seated hatred of Torah left in high places.

We can be blind to the power wielded by such people only at our own peril. Just as Israelis will not be able to restore their faith in the IDF and the intelligence agencies before the old guard that presided over Oct. 7th is swept out, charedim cannot develop any trust in any overtures to them until the same – and until Gali Baharav-Miara is given a one-way ticket to St. Helena, where she can spew her silliness to anyone who will listen.

I did point out to my friend that I googled his correspondent. His picture showed him to be a likely mahjong partner for Joe Biden. Which means that the influence of him and his friends is already on a path of steep, irreversible decline. The Haaretz crowd will soon go the way of the wooly mammoth. In the meantime, they are all Hiroo Onodas of a war their side lost quite a while ago.

It’s a tough juggling act. We cannot minimize the genuine hatred of Judaism among survivors of the State’s founding generations. Nor can we allow it to occlude the genuine openness of others, who are amenable to real solutions.

*******

In the Rova, on a nichum aveilim visit to a remarkable woman who is an iconic presence there. Very shortly after my wife and I walked in, an elderly woman, bearing herself with great dignity, shuffled into the room. She was dressed very, very frum.

She struck me as a “Tchalmer,” what the locals call old-guard Yerushalmis who have been here forever. I couldn’t figure out how one of them would have come to the Rova for a shiva call. Adding to the surprise were the “accessories” that she wore. Two bits of “jewelry” hung from her neck. One was hostage dog-tags; the other was the yellow bring-them-home ribbon. Not a typical Tchalmer, to be sure.

Then I heard someone address her. Rebbetzin Nebenzahl, they called her. Wife of Rav Avigdor Nebenzahl, shlit”a, the talmid-chaver of R Shlomo Zalman Auerbach.

Suddenly, it all made perfect sense.

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30 Responses

  1. William Lawrence Gewirtz says:

    A few observations:

    1) when you write: ” there is plenty of deep-seated hatred of Torah left in high places”, i disagree, I would refer to it as the Torah is currently practiced in various (perhaps a majority) of both Hareidi and politically RW DL communities. To my thinking, those practices are not halakhic Torah, lacking any semblance of derachecha darchai noam.
    2) That executive’s solution is so ludicrous as not to be taken seriously. Sadly however, well-meaning suggestions by secular executives, like providing (over 150 million dollars of) technical training in the Hareidi community at their expense, are impolitely rejected.
    3) I believe, or perhaps hope, that the divide between ordinary people is not as wide as between their leaders. Perhaps, that provides overly optimistic and misplaced hope.

  2. Ben Waxman says:

    My feeling is that American immigrants get wrapped up in these warnings more than other Israelis. Yes, the media was broadcasting the “when Iran going to attack” reports endlessly, but the Israelis in my community, at work, etc ignored them. Once the missiles start falling (like they did this morning) people start paying attenditon, absolutely.

    2nd, I wouldn’t take too much comfort in that generation of 48ers going the way of all flesh. There is still that hard core of people like Achim L’Neshek, Shikma Bresslor, Naor Narkis, the folks at The Secular Forum, and others who are in their prime. Further there is a large group of people who say “I have no problem with Torah. I do have a problem with the state getting involved in Torah”. The argument/fight with the latter is much more complicated than with the former group.

  3. Nachum says:

    For the record, R’ Nebenzahl is the son of a yekke oleh who held very high positions in the State (and not through being part of a charedi party). He himself (the father) moved to the Old City after 1967. R’ Shlomo Zalman’s yeshiva, Kol Torah, was itself founded by yekkes (as were many other of the religious educational institutions of Israel). R’ Nebenzahl’s wife (his second, married a few years after his first wife passed away) is herself an olah from England.

    “Been here forever” is therefore a mistaken impression, one that therefore also explains a lot. And not just in this case, but in the case of much of the charedi world, which arrived in Israel only *after* modern Zionism began, and even after 1948.

    Regarding the executive in question, wouldn’t it be nice if your friend could have responded, “That all sounds great! So long as they stay frum, of course.” That would call his bluff, no? The fact that he can’t so respond says a lot.

  4. Lacosta says:

    rather than pay attention to hiloni old timers , maybe it is more relevant to listen to the silent minority that is the Dati Leumi community , and their rapidly increasing hate/disgust of the folk to their right , who are involved with the State to the extent that they can find fodder to proselytize , and sources of lucre — to fund their community , which remains hermetically sealed when it comes to the Blood and Fire engulfing everyone else – and which ruins for example their bein hazmanim activities [chayalim also have a bein hazmanim-a short break before their life is again on the line ] read please this https://www.rationalistjudaism.com/p/the-dati-community-is-furious and see if unjustified….

    • William Lawrence Gewirtz says:

      The article by R. Slifkin is very damning of the Haredi community and IMHO justifiably so. One phenomenon however stands out as most offensive – American olim who remain permanent residents without ever becoming citizens of the State of Israel, thereby exempting their children from any obligation to serve in the IDF or in any manner at all. Just within my circle of friends and relatives, there are many such examples. I am not fully aware of all sides of the issue, but it is beyond troubling. If someone knows of a possible justification, I would appreciate hearing.

      • Ben Waxman says:

        William:

        I believe that a toshav kevah has to serve in Zahal. Is that the status to which you refer?

      • William Lawrence Gewirtz says:

        Ben Waxman, My understanding is if the toshav kevah is a citizen of say the US, he need not serve.

    • lacosta says:

      one of the commenters there made the following important observation—
      As much as I believe the Charedim have failed miserably in their response to the war, I am afraid these commenters do not recognize what the Charedim really believe. If they did, they would never have imagined they’d join the army in any significant way. Generally speaking (and this is all a generalization but it explains where the community as a whole is coming from), the Charedim believe they are the continuation of the old yishuv that long predated the State of Israel. And they see the Zionist government as an evil, hostile entity who took over the land with no right to sovereignty over them in any way. The Charedim deserve to live in the land and have zero obligation to this evil government. They sadly view the dati Leumi community as unfortunate dupes who tragically fell in with the evil Zionists and their evil government and evil army. The Charedim will never give up their G-d-given right to live in Eretz Yisrael and will also never give in to any pressure from the evil government to compromise their values.

      —- i believe this is all true , i don’t believe it can change for the vast majority of hareilim [and probably haredim as well ]. i think the only fair solution is moving to a Toshav status —where all permanent residents in Israel can give up the requirement for service to the State at the nominal cost of any claim to any form of financial benefit and the right to vote . like a green card holder in USA . where you can live in USA forever and never worry about jury duty or voting.

      Of course , living in the country requires paying taxes if one earns money . But I think we could agree there would be much less animus against the million plus hareilim if they were not voting and not benefitting from the state financially . then , their army obligation would be no more than that of a tourist. this i think could go a long way to helping both sides—- the hareilim could be free of any moral responsibility for the sins of the zionist entity , and the rest of the medina could have no taa’neh to them for military or financial burden.
      we seem to be moving to a model of Gvirim in Chu’l supporting the majority of Torah institutions in Israel anyways. maybe it should just be made official….

      • Schmerel says:

        Once you are demanding people pay taxes , then you can no longer tell not to benefit financially from the government. Once your ministry of health is going to regulate healthcare you can’t tell people they have no valid demands from it too. If anything you would need to have special taxes. (like sales tax) allocated to specific infrastructure costs like hospitals. Other things like money for education or childcare would only be for those who pay income taxes too. While the offer may be reasonable who is going to insure it? Once a group gives up it’s voting rights what is to prevent the legislature from reneging and demanding a draft tomorrow morning? The Israeli Supreme Courts and AG are bad enough of dictators as it is, just imagine if the Knesset also wasn’t accountable to and had no fear of voters from a specific demographic who they don’t identify with and have antithetical goals with.

      • Nachum says:

        It is impossible to live in a state- especially a modern state that provides all sorts of social benefits, but even in a libertarian paradise- without benefiting from it. Charedim turn on their water taps- that’s the state. Flip on a light switch, state. Walk on a road, state. And that’s leaving aside that someone choosing not to work is going to have to get money from *somewhere*, and the occasional fundraising drive in the US isn’t going to cover that. Where does the money come from? The state.

        Let’s get even more fundamental: Charedim don’t get anything from the state. OK. Hamas charges across the border, and the IDF rushes to protect citizens. Thank God, it reaches everyone in time, sets up defensive lines, and blocks Hamas from crossing them. But wait. There’s a charedi yishuv there. They don’t get anything from the state. Does the IDF just…let Hamas in? Does the Iron Dome cease to function over those areas?

        Do you see how silly this is? No: When you live in a civilization, you are expected to be part of it at least to some extent. This is, in fact, a Torah law. And charedim have no problem doing so even in hedonistic, anti-God countries, in the US, in the USSR, in Czarist Russia, in modern France, in Morocco…I could go on. But for some reason Israel is seen as worse than all of those.

    • Ben Waxman says:

      Lacosta

      You really should not equate the Anglo DL community with the general Israeli DL community.

  5. ThoughtsPlease says:

    His comment is a bit more extreme than I like, but I do believe that this sentiment is shared across the spectrum of religious and non-religious. Excelling in the mitzvahs between man and Gd, bein adam l’makom, and paying scant attention to the dimension of the mitzvas between man and himself, bein adam l’atsmo, creates underwhelming human beings. The raison d’etre of Torah, if we can say such a thing, is to facilitate self-actualization in man.

    Being robbed of your ability to provide for your family because of pressures to shun secular education, the stifling conformity that is imposed on each member, and the fear of societal ostracization that would result if someone pursued a passion other than learning, these are but a few characteristics that comprise the chareidi community. The chareidi community, despite all its good, which there is a lot, ultimately facilitates very few people in their becoming great people and denies the rest, or should I say robs the rest, of their God-given potential.

    This is not to even mention that the whole design of the chareid world is to insulate you from your Jewish brothers and sisters undermines a person’s character, to say the least.

    This is all from someone who lives and loves the chareidi community. Who sees it as a blessing to the Jewish world. But also acknlowedge’s that it places its members on a destructive path.

    • Marty Bluke says:

      Rav Aharon Lichtenstein who was Rosh Yeshiva of a major hesder yeshiva, once asked his students the following. Who do they relate more to? The chosid from Toldos Aharon in Meah Shearim or the Ashkenazi chiloni from Raman Gan who they do army service with? The majority answered the chiloni.
      Rav Aharon explained how misguided that was. He said that on all the major issues we are in 100% agreement with the chosid. Belief in god, Torah revelation, prophesy, Halacha, Torah, shabbos kashrus, etc. We have a hashkafic dispute about how to deal with the state and modernity but that doesn’t change the fact that on the real important issues we agree. The chiloni on the other hand doesn’t share any of our core beliefs. He doesn’t believe in god, Torah, prophesy, Halacha, he doesn’t keep shabbos or kosher. We have nothing in common with him on the major issues. Yes we both serve in the army but that can’t paper over the fact that on every core belief we disagree.

      • William Lawrence Gewirtz says:

        Marty, I doubt RAL ztl would regard serving in the IDF as a hashkafic issue, as opposed to a halakhic chiyuv. i would have to see that in writing or recorded.

        Feeling closer to a TA hasid does not make his chiyuv to serve any less.

  6. Nachum says:

    By the way, there were (maybe still are) secular Israeli organizations that *intended* to make charedim non-religious, or at least to encourage (or maybe just help) those already on their way out. The fact that this guy allows for people remaining religious, as per their choice of course, is, believe it or not, a big step forward. There were days when there were Israelis who would consider someone becoming integrated but deciding to remain religious a big failure. I think there are few if any such people left.

    • Maybe. But the fact that his plan – which he seems to take seriously – of institutionally freeing children from the grip of their parents sounds a bit too Soviet for me to give him the benefit of the doubt

      • Nachum says:

        Oh, the second someone starts talking about “cults” and starts citing UN resolutions is when the red flags go up, no argument there.

      • Bob Miller says:

        “Your.sons and your daughters are beyond your command” is the Dylanish idea.

      • Bob Miller says:

        Source of my Dylan reference:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90WD_ats6eE
        The overall results of this youth rebellion were and still are horrendous.

      • Steven Brizel says:

        Social and cultural change rarely occurs is predicated or is successful when imposed by either legistative or judiicial fiat. Study the history of the BY movement-Sarah Schnier ZL presented evidence that the home was not capable of providing a sufficient education and the rest is history, In the US, the SCOTUS declared segregation unconstitutional , Wallace & Co fought integration, but integtration became a reality when a USC football team with Sam Cunningham as a fullback clobbered a then all white U of Alabama team coached by Bear Bryant-the next year Bryant started recruiting black high school students-Clearly social chnage happens from within-not via the opinion of a judge or a law passed by a legislature.

        Charedi enrollment in the IDF will increase when the IDF is serious in recruiting Charedim with the recognition that Charedim have unique needs in Halacha that require special consideration, Until that happens in the IDF and in the secular world, Charedim will be the scapegoat for all of Israel’s problems ranging from an IDF that was poorly prepared, and lacked the proper strategy ,tactics and manpower to fight this war to the cultural issue as noted by Gadi Taub as to whether Israel should be cognizant of Jewish tradition in the public realm or be a Hebrew speaking Sweden whose secular elites dream of being part of the progressive world and minimize the idelogical drive behind Islamist terror that sees no basis for the dream of the secular left-a two state solution. These issues can be solved but in seminars or in e-mails but only by change from within

  7. joel says:

    You might find this of interest. If anyone listens and comments, I’ll be interested in their thoughts:
    https://shiurim.eshelpublications.com/achdus-when-we-dont-agree-with-qa/
    Rabbi A Lopiansky-Achdus When We Don’t Agree (with Q&A)

    bsorot tovot

    • Avi Levin says:

      I appreciated that he didn’t try to convince the listeners of the Charedi position – just that they see themselves as a very isolated culture and are willing to sacrifice for it.

      I agree with RAL that you can keep that in mind for individuals – and feel like they are brethren.

      I’m still not machshiv that attitude, which resembles a 23-yo living at home who still acts and thinks like a self-absorbed teenager.

      Try and secularize them? No. Force them to take responsibility for themselves the way American yeshivish people do by eg removing yeshiva subsidesYes.

      • joel says:

        I was disappointed at the lack of any suggestion of how to move forward other than accept our pain too
        bsorot tovot

  8. hg says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein, thanks for posting the comments by someone representative of many secular ‘askanim’. He is not nearly as old as you think. Here is his follow-up to the first message above: “As I wrote, there are an unbridgeable gaps between our worlds and the way we perceive Judaism. It’s OK, Zionism has also unbridgeable gaps with some of our enemies and we have no other choice but to fight them and win. Here it’s not a bloody fight. Our means are resources and indoctrination. Time will tell if we can win this battle. I’m not sure but I’m convinced that this is the only way to avoid the inevitable fatal impact of a growing unproductive cult on the Zionist project.
    I had many discussions with young people, boys and girls, who have managed to obtain freedom from those cults. I have many discussion with young Haredim boys who I meet early in the morning in the park. I don’t need your arguments, it is clear to me that the Haredi way of life should be considered as a child abuse and a violation of the UN Convention on the Rights of a Child.
    Like every cult member you are convinced, proud and arrogant with your way of life and I have no ambition to challenge your conviction. You may laugh and entertain your friends but I’m not going to give up. I am well connected to the richest people and richest companies in Israel and to Zionist donors elsewhere. I hope that a huge amount of money will be raised for this Zionist and mostly humanitarian cause. To save the young Haredim from this ongoing child abuse and save Israel. “

  9. ChanaRachel says:

    “This year in Israel, a great many of us re-experienced those events……We literally went to sleep with the thought that we might not get up in the morning.”
    Tellingly, this was not the feeling of anyone I know in our Dati community in central Israel. We were mainly concerned for our children in the army / miluim, and mourned all those lost and injured since October 7th, together with tragedies going back to the Churban. A potential attack from Iran was background noise.
    If an attack from Iran was the main Chareidi concern this Tisha Be’Av it just shows again (unfortunately) how far removed our communities are from each other

  10. Dr. E says:

    Rabbi Adlerstein: You wrote “those of us who look to chareidi leadership….”. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it would seem that you might really mean “those of us who look to Torah leadership”. Torah leadership may in fact include Chareidim, but might also include Moreh Derech whom most would not put into the aforementioned box. Once the term “chareidi leadership” is used, that conflates their scope with identity politics. As such, the leaders and followers engage in a self-fulfilling prophesy and it becomes a Catch-22. Especially since October 7, they feel locked in to making statements that would reflect a more extreme worldview consistent with how the chareidi world has evolved, as opposed to the more intellectually honest and nuanced one that existed prior to the invention and popularized use of the chareidi moniker.

  11. Steven Brizel says:

    I think that anyone concerned about these issues should avoid rhetorical extremism from any perspective and try to work together

  12. Shades of Gray says:

    “our well-meaning brethren thousands of miles away just didn’t have the same skin in the game”

    I think of connections to Eretz Yisrael as being in concentric circles. While many Jews worldwide can identify after 10/7 to a greater degree than before with R. Yehuda Halevi’s declaration of “Libi v’mizrach v’anochi b’sof Maarav,” that’s not quite the same as sharing the experience of being in Israel during a time of war. Even in Israel, there are obvious differences between having a son in combat versus non-combat, and living in the north versus the south, for example(see R. Lebowitz’s shiur below, Minute 21). Nevertheless, people living anywhere can still have some degree of empathy as discussed in the links below.

    R. Aryeh Lebowitz, in a Torah Web shiur given this April titled, “Can We Really Empathize With our Brethren in Israel? If Not, What Can We Do? ” said that it’s absurd to think that non-Israelis can really feel what people in Eretz Yisrael are going through. R. Lebowitz has a friend in Beit Shemesh who knocks on people’s door to the tune of a song so that the owners would not have to think — even for a moment — that it’s the army coming with bad news about their son, as the hearts of people skip a beat when they hear a knock on their door. If one doesn’t have a child fighting in the army, one can’t relate to that experience(Minutes 20-22). Nevertheless, one can build a sense of nosei b’ol im chaveiro in three ways(by doing something different, by being a source of strength for people closer to the war, and having a sense of a shared mission and destiny of Klal Yisrael). He also notes that cracks between the different sectors of Klal Yisrael that emerged after the initial post-10/7 unity made it consequently harder to believe in Hashem, thereby causing new questions of emunah to be asked to R. Lebowitz (see recap of shiur in Minutes 33-36).

    https://www.torahweb.org/audio/rleb_040724.html

    A wonderful broad-based initiative is “Personal Message to Parents of IDF Soldiers,” a series of personal video messages of support to parents of soldiers. While some of the authors, like R. Mordechai Becher, have children in the IDF, many contributors did not, and mentioned this upfront in the video message. Yet all the videos I saw were empathetic and heartfelt(in fact, I think one can draw inspiration and life wisdom from them independent of 10/7). See link to videos including by Cross Currents authors Rabbis Adlerstein and Shafran:

    https://www.youtube.com/@support_idfparents

    https://www.jns.org/wire/video-messages-provide-support-to-parents-of-idf-soldiers/

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