Modern Orthodoxy’s Defining Moment

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137 Responses

  1. mycroft says:

    Al regel achat I agree with the basic idea. MO represents different things to different people, To some it is ideology essentially following RYBS hashkafa. Probably, a decreasing percentage in the US due to fewer role models advocating his hashkafa. On the other end are those who for some sopciological reason want to identify as Orthodox without the commitment. Each person, group is different.
    What I object to is that many who reject the hashkafa of MOs who attend 3 minyanim day etc try to argue that those peoples hashkafa is wrong because of the percentage of MOs who violate much of halacha. IMO we are dealing with different populations.

    • Steve Brizel says:

      Mycroft wrote in part:

      “What I object to is that many who reject the hashkafa of MOs who attend 3 minyanim day etc try to argue that those peoples hashkafa is wrong because of the percentage of MOs who violate much of halacha”

      WADR, the facts on the ground are that many persons who identify themselves as MO hashkafically are quite open and honest that they consider themselves as such because they don’t adhere to various normative halachos, and make no bones about criticizing those who not go to minyan three times a day but strive to keep many other halachos as well

      • mycroft says:

        I used 3 minyanim a day as an example that is visible and all agree is a mitzvah, I could have listed benching, I could have listed koveeh ittim letorah. I differentiated between two different types of MO or maybe MO and mO. I wrote that essentially i believe similar to what I understood Rabbi Gordimer. I consider it illegitimate to compare those who are sociologically MO with those who are committed mO and Halachik system. My classical example of MO is RYBS.

    • Steve Brizel says:

      Perhaps, MO needs to realize that one doesn’t fight today’s battles and wars with yesterday’s weapons
      One does not successfully fight a Blitzkrieg with the Maginot Line ior horse cavalry .Realizing that the secular culture today is not the secular culture of the 1950s and early 1960s would be a good starting point . That would require recognition of the following perfect storm that exists today and animates the secular world:

      1) Freedom of speech and especially free exercise of religion is under attack especially by those who view both as contrary to identity poliitics
      2) Intersectionality and its specious cousin of “white privilege” are hostile to Israel and Jewish identity even when Jewish identity is set forth in the form of seeking social justice
      3) The secular world has embraced the post modern concept of competing narratives as opposed to a search for truth even in science and mathematics and did so years ago in the softer social sciences. Far too much of what is valuable in terms of science, mathematics and literature is derisively rejected as the product of dead white males, despite the fact that no other culture produced the same.

      MO, as opposed to the Charedi world, because it is predicated on interacting with modernity, as opposed to being far more judicious in terms of what aspects of modernity can serve Avodas HaShem needs to recognize that this perfect storm is a clear and dangerous hashkafic threat to its future well being and not trot out hashkafic ideas that were wonderful back in the 1950s but which may be of less value today. Being apologetic, giving into cultural political and media driven Zeitgeists and denying that the problem exists will not result in a viable strategy or set of hashkafic tools.

      • Mycroft says:

        Secular culture of the 50 s and 60 s was not so different, drug use was pandemic, do you forget the riots in the streets and on campuses during the 60s.
        I find it strange that in your attack on MO you refer to hashkafic ideas from the 50 s and 60 s, a valid hashkafa is valid, might have to apply it differently to different circumstances. Not sure how things are different.
        If a hashkafa was kosher back then it is kosher today. The application may be different.

  2. Bob Miller says:

    When “modern” and “orthodox” themselves are not well-defined to everyone’s satisfaction, you know what a problem we’d have pinning down “modern orthodox”.

    • dr. bill says:

      traditional Judaism that engages with modernity; modern is not an adjective, but a declaration of orthodoxy’s relevance in every environment.

  3. Reb Yid says:

    Many issues to quibble with, but let’s just start with where to educate a child.

    Our Jewish day schools, by and large, are unable to adequately meet the needs of children who are “outside the box”. Some children might need additional challenges elsewhere; on the other end of the spectrum, some children who have other types of special needs might need a more fully supportive environment that is better equipped with necessary social, emotional and academic resources.

    This does not, of course, even begin to address the skyrocketing cost of Jewish day schools. Living, as many modern Orthodox Jews do, in areas where housing and other expenses are very high to begin with, it is not unreasonable for some families to find other ways to make ends meet.

    It is very presumptuous to question another family’s religious “bona fides” in today’s very challenging climate for Jewish day schools.

    • Steve Brizel says:

      Reb Yid wrote:

      “Our Jewish day schools, by and large, are unable to adequately meet the needs of children who are “outside the box”. Some children might need additional challenges elsewhere; on the other end of the spectrum, some children who have other types of special needs might need a more fully supportive environment that is better equipped with necessary social, emotional and academic resources.

      This does not, of course, even begin to address the skyrocketing cost of Jewish day schools. Living, as many modern Orthodox Jews do, in areas where housing and other expenses are very high to begin with, it is not unreasonable for some families to find other ways to make ends meet.

      Let’s analyze these issues one at a time:

      1) Most major Jewish communities have programs and schools for children with special needs and parents who are seeking the right “social, emotional and academic” niche for their children. Sometimes that means reasessing which school, provides the necessary tools for the child’s growth-even when the hashkafa of the school is different than yours.

      2) Living in such community requires you to determine what are your priorities in your life-if transmitting Torah to the next generation is of paramount importance, you will and should sacrifice in other areas of life

      3) If your house is equipped with all of the latest high tech bells and whistles and you neither open a sefer or view Kvias Itim LaTorah , and view Torah and Mitzvos as a burden as opposed to how we show Ahavas HaShem, and kvetch constantly about your shul and community in front of your children then one should not one’s children to be observant because you have sent the wrong message as a parent as to what are your priorities in life. It is not wrong to question so-called “religious bona fides” when such questionning has a very long and honorable place in our tradition that you can find in the Tanach ( see Parshas Ki Savo “Tachas Asher Lo Avadata Es HaShem BSimcha uvtuv levav” and the critique of going thru the motion mechanically in observance a/k/as-Mitzvos Anashim Mlumada. As CI, RYBS and RAL ZL all pointed out desiring to be religiously mediocre should not be seen as the raison de etre of RZ or MO. OTOH, I know of more than one MO school that has produced many Bnei and Bnos Torah and Talmidei Chahcamim. IMO, the idea that we should not engage in such self examination is a huge mistake/

      It is very presumptuous to question another family’s religious “bona fides” in today’s very challenging climate for Jewish day schools.

      • Reb Yid says:

        Every child is different and has his or her own needs. Our family is fortunate that we have been able to give all of our children high quality Jewish and general education in Jewish day schools, and have also had the means to do so.

        Some families are not as fortunate. And we’ve always lived in communities with no shortage of day schools. We’ve also known our share of families (among them rabbinic ones) who have needed, for any number of completely legitimate reasons, to go outside of the Jewish community to ensure that their child/ren have their needs met.

        In some cases finances have been part of the picture as well.

        Again–it is presumptuous of anyone to question another family’s decision unless you have been in their shoes, understand their circumstances and especially understand the specific needs of the child. Most Jewish day schools are simply not equipped to deal with this, and this is a fact that I know very intimately from personal and professional connections.

    • Steve Brizel says:

      repeating your point which has some merit in its entirety in response does not necessarily mean that you addressed the issues in my reply:

      1)Unless you insist on the equivalent of home schooling have no resources whatsoever and live in a community with such programs or schools for children with special needs or want an education that suits your niche 100% , the choice of a day school should always take precedence over the leftist training grounds known as public schools

      2We have all seen families–parents and children and while no one knows what happens behind closed doors, we all make decisions for our families that have consequences -both positive and negative Blaming schools and communities are an easy exercise-thinking about what school and community is best for your family invariably requires no small measure of cheshbon hanefesh

      • Reb Yid says:

        The welfare of the child should always take precedence. Period.

        In my Orthodox shul, we have families who sent their children to every imaginable kind of school–Jewish day schools from various places on the denominational spectrum, private schools and public schools. But no matter where they send their children, these are all proudly religiously observant families; you certainly would not know from the practices and orientations of the children or families that there are any differences between them. We are friends with all of these families and they are a regular part of our shul and Shabbat communities.

        No one is looking for any easy way out or something to “blame”. These are all incredibly thoughtful, loving, intelligent and observant people.

    • Mycroft says:

      Day schools have always been a challenge for those whose families don’t have the income/assets to afford or the child is not suited for. a day school curriculum. Unfortunately, few if any practice Chanoch Lenaar al pi darko

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Many do -you just either haven’t met any outside of your echo chamber

      • Mycroft says:

        Steve schools I general do ot practice Chanoch Lenaar al pi darko except in their PR about them

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Again, perhaps you have only seen a few such schools. There are many fine graduates of day schools and yeshiva high schools that may have needed some specialized help who are fully observant, married and parents. Many day schools and yeshivos have resource rooms and tutors and work with programs such as Ptach, etc or offer full fledged programs for students with special needs within the framework of the school. It is worth noting that such programs IIRC but I am willing to be corrected if someone has proof to the contrary, began in the Charedi community

    • Very true, Reb Yid. In the 2017 survey of the MO community, the cost of Jewish education ranked as the #1 problem area among 27 issues raised.
      % saying it’s a “serious problem” (Top 10)
      Cost of Jewish schooling 89%
      Agunot 69%
      People with inappropriate middot 56%
      Cost of maintaining an Orthodox home 56%
      People dishonest in business 53%
      Anti-Semitism 43%
      People lacking love for others in the community 42%
      Shidduch process 42%
      People feeling isolated 36%
      Adequacy of funds to meet community needs 36%

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Cost is a problem but if you don’t engage in cheshbon hanefesh you will always blame cost schools and community as opposed to looking for a community and schools as opposed to asking yourself why your child will emerge from public school as cannon fodder for the progressive movement. The child’s neshama not the parents comfort zone predicated on cost which all parents encounter at some part of being a Shomer Torah Umitzvos should be part of any decision as to what is in the best interest of the child

      • Mycroft says:

        Cost is the major problem in modern day Orthodoxy. Probably true losses over generations even greater than Mr Trenchers studies, why there are those who. Have left due to cost. Ever notice that a lot of weaker kids go OTD in HS. Many already know the score that they won’t be able to afford an Orthodox lifestyle so they might as well leave on their terms. A person struggling in HS knows he is not going to be a physician, actuary. etc.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Mycroft-the Charedi world certainly does not encourage MD actuary or bust and in the US certainly recognizes the importance of learner earners who do not earn big bucks.

        You also wrote:

        “Secular culture of the 50 s and 60 s was not so different, drug use was pandemic, do you forget the riots in the streets and on campuses during the 60s.
        I find it strange that in your attack on MO you refer to hashkafic ideas from the 50 s and 60 s, a valid hashkafa is valid, might have to apply it differently to different circumstances. Not sure how things are different.
        If a hashkafa was kosher back then it is kosher today. The application may be different.”

        The question is not whether the Hashkafa was kosher and even desirable back in the 1950s and 1960s but rather whether it can be applied to circumstances that are far worse than that of the 1950s and 1960s. You don’t fight today’s wars with yesterday’s weapons

  4. Nachum says:

    You can’t just throw out that item about kosher places being open on Shabbat as being self-evident apikorsut. The Rabbinate, charedi badatzim, and American agencies all certify thousands of places that are open on Shabbat. They’re called “hotels.” The places that want to be open on Shabbat and certified are 100% kosher and Shomer Shabbat. That’s the whole point.

  5. Rabbi Gordimer,
    For all your efforts to maintain that Modern Orthodoxy is a big tent and is not “splitting” into fragments, this line towards the end of your post betrays it.
    You wrote:
    “Were this current “MO-OTD” problem purely a function of the influence of outside pressures and influences, fought against valiantly by Orthodox leadership, it would be one thing. But when the very teachings of liberal Orthodoxy, in the form of mixed messages, contribute to people abandoning the ship, it is quite something else.”

    There you have it– a new stream of Orthodoxy: “Liberal Orthodoxy”. (It is also known as “Open Orthodoxy”)
    So why are you trying to talk around a schism when we already have one?

  6. Steve Brizel says:

    I know many parents who despite economic ups and downs and whose kids did not fit a cookie cutter model never considered public school and who raised children who did very well in the day school system and who are proud Torah observant adults The arguments advanced against day school education are by parents who use the cost factor as a pretext of masking their own lack of willingness to think about options for their families that are out of their hashkafic comfort zones

    • Reb Yid says:

      You should take your own advice. There are some very specialized schools and even some public schools that have superior services and offerings in some areas compared to most every Jewish day school.

      You may have hashkafic objections to the school but these schools have done wonders. And the families are and remain observant.

      Even in our own family we actually originally enrolled one of our children in a Jewish day school that was not to our hashkafic liking one bit. But there was a specific educational niche that no other school could quite fill. Ultimately we did move him after a time since by then we got what we needed out of that school and the hashkafic environment had become overly oppressive and threatening.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Public schools offer help for kids with special needs that should be accessed if necessary. However, the risks to the neshama of a Jewish child in today’s public schools which are training grounds for the progressives and SJWs and woke conscious raisers of the world who pose as teachers which are clear present and well documented as are the consequences to the neshama of any Jewish child who is exposed to the same during the course of a public school education

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Been there done that Chinuch is a buyers market but you have to decide where you want to live and what schools are best for your kids as opposed to which suit your Hashkafa

    • Mycroft says:

      Proof is in the pudding. Look at professions of parents in dates leumi schools in Israel vs professions in parents of MO day school parents in US,the US has much less variation in economic class.. Until such time as day schools follow Harvard Model and state that we don’t charge tuition to those earning less than X thousands of dollars and give a public sliding scale don’t give others Mussar. Until such time as day schools will charge non mechanchim the same amount for the same effective income as mechanchim pay don’t attack those who don’t send to day school.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Is it really fair to compare DL schools which have their own issues and which many Chardalim avoid, and which are state subsidized and untill recently were indicative of a socialist no growth economy with day schools in the US? Perhaps the SCOTUS, which has a Blain Amendment case on its docket, will help render day school education affordable.

    • Mycroft says:

      You know kids who did well in the day school system,, there are those who certainly are no longer frum, many leading day school grads are not frum. If you watched hearings you would have seen one.
      You have chutzpah saying about others they are using cost as a pretext. There may be some like that but the ones I am talking about in the 5ts are not from Woodsburgh , Back Lawrence, Hewlett Harbor, You may not be aware there are sections vast majority not Jewish but within a mile or so of a schul which are not the 5Ts of those who go to hotels for Pesach or live in mansions.
      Read the survey and data of Zvi Grumets survey of day school grads and see percentage who would date non Jews.
      Until such time as day schools will list what one is expected to contribute based on schedule of income, assets, size of family, don’t repeat the talking points that everyone can afford it.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        I watched the hearings one witness was a self described shoneh uparush whose lack of knowledge of basic constitutional principles was appalling

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Grumet survey showed many would only date Jews don’t blame schools as the sole cause for graduates who interface or intermarry

      • Steve Brizel says:

        In fact three of the four professors gave the distinct impression of being tenured radicals who displayed little if any knowledge or awareness of separation of powers and the actions of past presidents whose policies were far more problematic from a constitutional perspective

  7. D K says:

    The way i understand Modern Orthodoxy is a valid Daas Torah approach under R’ Y. B. Soloveitchik (and maybe the German community) which has been “voted down” by Mesorah. Meaning, even though in the beginning it was a totally fine Shita that could be perpetuated as the Mesorah, being that the majority of Gedolim held that it was not the way to go, they in essence removed the chance that it would take hold among Torah-True Jews. [Similar to, for example, Rabbi Meir as a Daas Yachid against the majority of the Chachamim.)

    Still, there are holdouts among those who are loyal to their Rebbi and go along with with his Psakim and approach. These holdouts, if doing so for the proper reasons, will still be able to live successful Torah lives (and their children and grandchildren prove it). [Just as if Rabbi Meir’s Beis Medrash still Paskened like their Rebbi.]

    On the other side, the one’s who’s actions and intentions have absolutely nothing to do with a Torah approach and only wish to either cut out the “hard parts” or invent a new Judaism, stand no chance of ever living a Torah life and continuing the line through their children.

    In the future, as time goes on, each and every Modern Orthodox person will be forced to make the choice to continue in a way that has been shunned by the Torah community or to join back with the main bloc of Orthodox Judaism.

    • lacosta says:

      ….spoken like a true haredi my-way-or-the -highway type of jew….

      • Bob Miller says:

        Often that “my way” is one of many halachically acceptable choices.

      • D K says:

        Yeah, in a way. But to rephrase what you said, it’s more like “our way” or the highway. “Our Way”, being the accepted Mesorah for Avodas Hashem in that generation.
        Look at what the Chinuch says regarding Acharei Rabbim L’Hatos and the chiuv of the minority opinion to bow to the majority. This is not just the Sanhedrin, but regarding all the Mitzvos. A Zakein Mamrei refuses to go along with the accepted Psak…

    • mycroft says:

      Is it really fair to compare DL schools

      My intended point is simply that in Israel one has Dati Leumi parents from all socioeconomic classes, sadly not nearly true in the US. All the repetition of PR and Hashkafa is meaningless when one looks at real facts on the ground. MO is essentially limited to those way above median income in the US. IMO one who believes that one can insist attendance in day school is mandatory for being Orthodox while making an income test for what one believes is following dear hashed is immoral.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Again comparisons between schools that are publicly subsidized and schools that aren’t is not a fair basis for comparison

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Very difficult to compare educational systems in vacuum without considering economic and political systems and policies such as state support etc

    • Mycroft says:

      Assuming as you said that MO was valid because RYBS followed that approach, that he is now in the Olam haemet would not take way the validity of his approach. Certainly mesorah doesn’t vote up or down. There have been different hashkafot around. Of course, any hashkafa to be valid must accept the Halachik system, which takes as a given that Shas is binding and certainly for non Yeminites the SA and for Ashkenazim the Ramas glosses are binding.
      Hashkafa does not have the psak. Rambam, Ravad, Abarbanel, Albo all had different hashkafot. It is not a matter for psak Halacha. Obviously, something accepted by all Rishonim such as Torah misinai , is binding. But we have not paskened one against the other. In modern times have not paskened SRH vs Hildesheimer, Classical Yeshiva world vs RYBS,etc

      • rkz says:

        WADR, chazal pakened hashafa, and the Rambam himself paskened in areas of hashkafa, as did other Rishonim. Many hashkafot were pakened to be completely binding, and to differ from them was pakened to be kefira..

      • dr. bill says:

        Rambam was clearly influenced by Greek philosophy in his formulation of ikarim. While burning his books was a travesty, they were not burned because they were seen as normative. As Prof. Halberthal points out, the more established / tradition method of expression was le’ha’amin beh, “to believe in,” not as the Rambam wrote, in obviously Greek-style le’ha’amin sheh, “to believe that.” As you daven / learn the next few weeks remember how often you see “beh.”

      • rkz says:

        Dr. Bill, the Greek influence was in the area of form and style, not in the content. Or more accurately, the questions and problems that Jewish Philosophy in the times of the Geonim and Rishonim (and quite a bit afterwards) were Greek/Arab, but the answers were not. (and that is the explanation that I give both in my shiurim and in my lectures)

      • dr. bill says:

        rkz, i need not quote Marshall McLuhan in any detail who is sufficient to upend your attempt at rationalization. Prof. Halbertal example that I quoted: sheh versus bah is content, not style. a large number of other examples (even in MT and ) in the Moreh indicates that you have recast the Moreh in your image and would not be fruitfully discussed.

        McLuhan and sheh/bah suffice to render your assertion fundamentally incorrect. i shudder to think how texts can be read to mean what the reader believes.

      • rkz says:

        Dr. Bill- I’m sorry that you feel a need to shudder. Please read the sources that I quoted about MN (MiNofet Tzuf and the haskama of GRYA to the sefer)

      • dr. bill says:

        rkz, what you claim is disputable. shtikah ke’hoda’ah is an undisputed principle. you did not comment one iota on the first paragraph I wrote, which obliterates your claim about form and not content.

        I do shudder when I read comments on Rambam’s section of MT and the Moreh that require familiarity with medieval philosophy and astronomy where Rambam was a leading figure in the entire community of man.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Nice survey but IMO WADR one cannot underestimate influence of Zohar on SA especially Acharonim and views of Rishonim such as Ramban who rejected views of Aristotle that I only accept what I understand and comprehend ( see Ramban end of Acharei Mos) Especially the realm of Chukim the meaning of which cannot discerned by the greatest

      • rkz says:

        Dr. Bill, I responded to both paragraphs. Please re-read the sources that I quoted

      • emet le'amito says:

        rkz, your sources addressed Marshall McLuhan and sheh versus beh?? i am surprised!!

      • rkz says:

        emet le’amito, my sources also dealt with form vs. content (although I do not remember if they mentioned the name you wanted), and with many sugyut in MN (which explain the she’/be’ issue)

      • dr. bill says:

        rkz, deal with and deal with knowledgeably are not the same.

      • rkz says:

        Dr. Bill,
        You wrote: “deal with and deal with knowledgeably are not the same”. I agree completely. However, that distinction is irrelevant to my point, since the sources that I referred to belong to the second category.

  8. DF says:

    What exactly does Rabbi Gordimer wish us to take away from this post – that there’s problems in modern orthodoxy? So? There’s problems in every stream of orthodoxy. There always has, and there always will be. It’s part of being living and vibrant. I admit to not understanding the thrust of this article.

    • Mycroft says:

      RKZ
      Show me where Klal Israel has paskened hashkafot. Halacha we have to pasken to know what to d. Hashkafa there is no psak, as IIRC R Jeremy Wieder saying once who says we pasken like the Rambam and even assuming there was such a psak who says the Ribono Shel Olom agrees

      • rkz says:

        There is a teshuva in shut Radbaz. I will look up the mare’a makom b’ezrat Hashem.

      • emet le'amito says:

        Av teshuvah by a rishon demonstrates what a rishon held, but not newfound principles totally accepted.

      • rkz says:

        I thought that Mycoft asked for a source.
        There is a ma’amar about this issue in Ma’amarey Hara’aya, a Teshuva in Halakha Beyameinu (GRYA shlita) and a whole sefer on these topics called Emet Ve’emuna (Harav Tal Chaimovitz)

      • emet le'amito says:

        rkz, and therefore??? there are many seforim on many topics that present views not consensus.

      • rkz says:

        emet le’amito- I think it would be better to read the sources that I mentioned, and then decide if what they write is consensus.

      • dr. bill says:

        too much to read and study and organize and write to make time for your suggestions.

    • Mycroft says:

      As rare are the ones who can truly understand MT and the Moreh, there are fewer who have any idea of how Kabbalah came to be, the sources of the Zohar which as R Isaac of Acre a leading late 13 th century Kabbalist stated when shown the book, stated iI is unknown. He of course, being a student of the Rambans school who was certainly active in SOD but did not believe in teaching it to masses and thus was opposed to R Moshe de Leons attempt to spread this to masses by writing down essence of Kabbalah.
      It is certainly interesting to see how the Zohar revolutionized Jewish practice, certainly among Sefardim, via SA and certainly R Y Karo being a great mystic in addition to being the writer of the SA.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Ramban in his commentary on Chumash certainly refers to Sod and makes no reference to any opposition to teaching the same. You can referenced to the influences of Zohar in many comments of Nosei Keilim in SAN and in many Minhagei Yisrael that have enriched Am Yisrael and its Shemiras HaMitzvos

  9. Steve Brizel says:

    Again, if one lives in a suburban MO community and can afford a nice house, car, and all the bells and whistles that one expects with the same, then complaints about the costs of a Torah observant life including tuition can ring a little hollow if you don’t prioritize in your own heart and mind as to what counts.

    • mycroft says:

      Again, if one lives in a suburban MO community and can afford a nice house, car, and all the bells and whistles that one expects with the same, then complaints about the costs of a Torah observant life including tuition

      Many are not living in expensive houses, do not drive nice cars. Suburban areas in general have housing much less expensive than those in Queens, Brooklyn, or Manhattan.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Compare housing costs and property taxes in NJ and Five Towns with that of Queens and Brooklyn. The costs in Bergen County, NJ and the Five Towns as well as tuitions are far greater. Manhattan remains the province of those who can afford its astronomical prices and rent or the subsidized poor, with no middle class communities therein . Young yeshivishe couples are moving to suburbs of Lakewood Passaic and W Hempstead because houses are bigger and cheaper than in Queens and Brooklyn and their friends are moving there.

        Housing and tuition costs in major communities outside of NY such as Chicago , Cleveland, suburbs of Detroit , Dallas and Houston are far less expensive than the greater NYC area

    • Bob Miller says:

      Some live in the suburbs (sometimes these are within city limits) because of job location and do not live the stereotypical lives of the well-fixed.

      • mycroft says:

        Compare housing costs and property taxes in NJ and Five Towns with that of Queens and Brooklyn.
        If one includes property taxes from suburbs, one must include the city income taxes which one does not pay in the suburbs. Both jurisdictions have to get tax money, one gets from income other from property, to afford a house with the high property taxes likely to have income with taxes.
        The houses so much cheaper, it is cheaper to live in suburbs-unless one is talking about the suburban areas that famous people live. Look at housing prices paid by people who can’t afford day school, they are not in the five towns that you are familiar with.
        The housing per equivalent housing is so much cheaper in much of the suburbs than neighborhoods in Queens or Brooklyn
        cW Hempstead because houses are bigger and cheaper than in Queens and Brooklyn and their friends are moving there. It might surprise you that for the equivalent house W Hempstead is in the same ballpark as part of 5Ts. There is a real estate tax game which is a reason why many Yeshivish are moving to Nassau County, most from people now moving to my block are yeshivahs due to an unintended fluke in laws due to manner of assessment combined with a limited state exemption they generally don’t pay RE taxes. A reason why my area does not have many people like me moving in, either want public schools or those exempt from taxes. It is no secret Newsday had front page article about the situation a few months ago.

    • Reb Yid says:

      You’re not living in reality.

      Do you know what tuition costs are in many modern Orthodox suburban schools? The folks who are complaining about the tuition costs are not the ones living in McMansions and spending their Pesach vacation in Jamaica or wherever.

      I’ll keep on repeating this–neither you nor the author of this post nor anyone else should presume to pass judgment on how “religious” an individual is based upon this sole criterion. While there are communities that do this, I purposefully choose to live in a community that does not.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        If you don’t think that families engage in value judgments behind closed doors you are sadly mistaken

    • Mycroft says:

      rkz
      My intent was the way emet le’amito interpreted my comments. T apologize for not being clearer.

  10. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft if you look at the growth of communities in Dallas Houston and Boca all have one common factor namely the absence of oppressive local taxes and a business friendly community as opposed to a tax and regulatory oppressive set up in blue states I would also note that Texas has has never been accused of being soft on crime Young couples also look for states that have tuition tax credits as well

    • mycroft says:

      Re Boca RATON
      Twenty percent of Jewish households identify with a synagogue in South Palm Beach County. Of that 20%, approximately half pay dues to a “brick and mortar” synagogue. Seventy-one percent of our Jewish community identify with a Jewish denomination: Orthodox (8%), Conservative (25%), Reform (37%), Other (1%).Nov 30, 2018
      ► RE HOUSTONDenominational identification of Jewish households is Reform 37%, Conservative 24%, Orthodox 4%, Reconstructionist 1%, and Just Jewish 33%; the Just Jewish identification is significantly
      increased from 1986
      DALLAS TOTAL Jewish POPULATION 75000, how many Orthodox Jews there.
      Data does not show Orthodoxy flourishing in any of your examples. That does not mean to say that there are dedicated skillful people there but look at facts in the ground

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Look at facts on ground not self serving demographic data Dallas thanks to a wonderful Kollel sent 125 people to the last Siyum HaShas

  11. Steve Brizel says:

    Beyond the Five Towns WestHempstead Great Neck and Plainview MO does not exist on the Island Outside of Bergen County Passaic anfd the Lakewood area Orthodoxy does not exist in NJ because there are no communicatiws with the superstructure of schools shuls shopping eruv and Mikva that young couples see as an absolute minimum together with in many instances at least a community Kollel

    • Mycroft says:

      Many parts of West Hempstead and 5ts have houses much less expensive than those found in Jewish sections of Queens.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Add the property taxes to the mortgage payments show me proof of such houses the ads in the free weekly Jewish papers geared to the Torah observant communities are IMO proof otherwise

      • Steve Brizel says:

        How many of those houses are in the sections of WH And the Five Towns within walking distance to a shul or short drive for car pools and shopping?real estate taxes and tuitions are factors you seem to be excluding from your presentation

    • Mycroft says:

      It is very nice that Dallas Kollel sent 125 people to siyyum hashas, demographic data is far more important than self serving anecdotes.
      There are many days that there are more people from the Jewish communities within five miles of my house which numbers far fewer than 75000 when that many fly to Israel.
      You maintain that a Jewish community of 75000 can send 125 people to an event the Orthodox community in Dallas apparently made a huge deal about.. Thus, less than one in 500 Dallas Jews partaked of the event showing adherence to a cause.

      • Mycroft says:

        Steve
        Within a five minute walk of my house can find houses that are inexpensive, one can also find houses within a five minute walk double price of mine.
        You know where I live , I live much less than five minutes from schul, we miss mincha Mon-Thursday in Standard Time. Other than that we have a minyan for every tfila of the year. Don’t believe me about property sales, they are public knowledge available on line.
        Our schul is not in the center of 5Ts , but there are shiurim every night M-Th. We are not in the expensive part in general of 5 Ts.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        We disagree Demographic data has underestimated Orthodoxy for decades because it focuses on the big tent issues not the facts on the ground and produces a self serving echo chamber which you cite

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Demographics ignores the facts on the ground because such data fit the myth of the big tent .the real story is communal superstructure and signs of a vital proof of Jewish community. Nd continuity on the ground which are on life support outside of Orthodoxy as Dr Wertheimer has stressed in his book

      • Steve Brizel says:

        The Siyum is an event that not just people in Dallas make s huge deal about Show me another event that celebrates Jewish continuity on a communal wide level that draws any where close to 90,000 plus ( this year will have Siyumim at Met Life snd Barclays in Brooklyn

      • Steve Brizel says:

        If you attended a siyum, and the prices for tickets are not that expensive, you would see why the Siytum is “an event the Orthodox community .. apparently [makes] a huge deal about. No other event shows the importance of Chashivus of Talmud Torah even if you haven;t learned the Daf . The OU events at Citifield and in LA are a welcome recognition that Talmud Torah is important or should be viewed as an important element to its constitutency. This year the main Siyum is outdoors. It is a great demonstration that Talmud Torah is as important as watching a football game outdoors in December

      • lacosta says:

        the siyum of shas is , by the way , an aguda event that is frequented [ and certainly addressed by ] almost exclusively by a haredi audience . in israel the DL will have its own event if i am not mistaken

  12. lacosta says:

    >>>Look at what the Chinuch says regarding Acharei Rabbim L’Hatos

    —again, this my way or the highway would eliminate the vast majority of MO,DL,chabad , and i don’t doubt other sectors as going against the favour of MaronanVrabonan…… that’s doubtless >1 million people that would be outside your machaneh [ ie treife derech , but kosher money]…

    • D K says:

      Ok. What are you trying to say?
      Rabbi Gordimer himself wrote about the failings of some of the groups you just mentioned and how they are having issues. And other’s that you mentioned are also known for their failings and their going the wrong way.
      Individually they may be Tzaddikim Gemurim, but yes, it’s a treife derech.
      And it’s not MY machaneh, it’s Klal Yisrael. It’s the path chosen by the Gedolei HaDor of the generation.

      • mycroft says:

        Calling a derech that has been followed by a gadol treif is presumptuous, counter to Yigdal the 13 Ikkarim of the Rambam have not been universally accepted by rishonim and we don’t pasken disputes among Rishonim in these matters. FWIW IMO essentially all or maybe all differences that we have with heterodox Judaism are universally on our side accepted by all Rishonim. Thus, differences in hashkafa with them in general are of a disqualifying nature. I object simply to your calling hashkafot that you disagree with Treife. I would not call Satmar Rebbes viewpoint about Israel Freire despite my disagreement with them and disagreement with certainly gedolim followed by many if not most followers of cross-currents.

      • Mycroft says:

        Maybe you should quote Wertheimer about the effectiveness of kiruv assuming you consider kiruv people becoming Shomrei mitzvot

      • dr. bill says:

        mycroft, you raise a good point. my reduced definition of success is whether their children marry with the faith, giving us another chance to succeed.

    • Mycroft says:

      I have no interest in watching people play football, or do I care about attending political rallies.
      Daf Yomis impact has never been objective,y analyzed,plusses and minuses. My plus I enjoyed attending for a few years when I was near the then Agudah headquarters and being in the presence of R Elimelech Bluth ZTL. I thought he was a great mensch.
      I don’t see the gain of having people do the daf, note that they don’t even say learn the daf when they don’t learn appropriate things for them or even what Halacha mandates see eg shnayimmmikrashnayim mikra veechad Targum.

      • StevevBrizel says:

        One can not deny there is a mitzvah incumbent on all male Jews to learn both Torah Shebicsav And especially all of TSBP even and especially that is not LMaaseh .The more that you learn even in quantity on a seemingly superficial level even if you don’t remember will have a profound impact on you as far as mass rallies and football games go Maamad HarSinssi certainly dwarfed both a Siyum and the SuperBowl or the Wirld Series

      • Steve Brizel says:

        R Blurh ZL was a great Talmid Chacham a wonderful mentsch and a Talmid Muvhak of RMF ZL who dealt with many Halachic issues in many Halachic areas that other rabbonim referred him as well

      • Mycroft says:

        Dr Bill
        Then perhaps we should treat R and C Judaism as a form of kiruv, more likely to marry within the faith than an unaffiliated. Certainly, vast majority of Jews will never be reached by community kollelim to follow their ideology.
        As RAL wrote how are we worse off if a Jew goes to a Conservative synagogue in Dubuque and Dallas

    • Mycroft says:

      Of course the siyyum Hashas is an Agudah event why I do not object to their limiting their speakers to their machene. One would not expect a Dem Convention to have a GOP.advocate speak and vice versa. The Agudah event on Jan 1 is their event Daf Yomis popularization is due to their work, they are entitled to once every 7 plus years make their show.
      I have argued in the past against those who claim they should have this or that person speak from YU.bDaf Yomi is theirs.

    • Mycroft says:

      Steve Just went to siyyum website went looked for seating prices they advertise real luxury 1800 a seat amudei hashas, they also say for private suites contact them for prices.
      It is the Agudahsuedas biggest day every 7.5 years or so. They are entitled. As I have written many times when people object that they don’t invite certain Rabbis, I state it is the Agudah who runs it they can honor whoever they wish to.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        There were many tickets available when ticket sales began that were quite reasonable and which offered great sight views . If you want to and can pay for a luxury seat that is your prerogative Many non Agudists go solely to give Kavod to Chashivus HaToemrsh vlomdeiha

  13. Steve Brizel says:

    Look at it this way. BH we have a BH in chinuch which contain a broad range of hashkafic options within the Mesorah. Advocating one to the absolute exclusion of the vitality of the other works for individuals, but one can argue that utilizing the best elements of both is an equally valid hashkafic path as well.

  14. Mr. Jay says:

    Some comments about American modern Orthodoxy.
    I attended a modern Orthodox school and several summer camps of the same basic hashkafah. As an adult, I taught English at three modern Orthodox high schools. I’m no expert in Rav Soloveitchik’s thought, but having read “Lonely Man of Faith,” “On Repentance,” and “Halachic Man,” as well as articles by R’ Walter S. Wurzburger, I think it’s safe to say that I’m decently educated in modern Orthodox thinking. R’ Wurzburger was, in fact, my shul rabbi. He and I were quite close, and I imbibed a great deal of his hashkafah. So I know both the sociology and the theory in modern Orthodoxy. Quite intimately. Moreover, I used to identify strongly with modern Orthodoxy. But I don’t anymore.
    Sorry, but I don’t think the modern Orthodox system works well at all.
    There’s a lot to say on the subject, but I’ll offer some brief points:
    1. Lack of Kedushah. Most American modern Orthodox schools are co-ed. It’s a disaster and a scandal, and I’ve seen it for myself. Really, is it wise to put male and female teenagers together? Gazing and flirting are only some of the problems. I am deliberately understating the issues. Mixing of men and women is common in other aspects of modern Orthodox life, including after-davening kiddushes. I don’t see how this kind of socializing can be justified, Kedushah is perhaps the most important value in Judaism, but I’ve seen it trifled with too often.
    2. A liberal arts education is by nature problematic. To be far too brief, Western culture — from its lowest to its highest levels — is simply an expression of the mind of Eisav. Depth and wisdom abound there, but its conceptual underpinnings are inimical to Judaism. For example, an idea like “tempus edax rerum” runs throughout English literature. We Jews should reject such a statement unequivocally, not feed it to our students. There are other, more abstract concepts in Western culture that undermine Jewish faith, but this isn’t the place to discuss them in any detail.
    3. Since the passing of R’ Solovietchik, leadership in the modern Orthodox world has seemed to be lacking. There are great talmidei chachamim in the modern Orthodox world, but there doesn’t seem to be any figure as authoritative or as charismatic as the Rav. Someone who people point to and say, “He’s the one we follow.”
    4. Religious Zionism gets rather tepid when three or four generations of American Jews have been singing “HaTikvah” at public occasions but aren’t moving to Israel in very big numbers. Don’t American modern Orthodox Jews become rather cynical after a while?
    But, in my opinion, the most serious problem in American modern Orthodoxy is the first one I cited — lack of kedushah. Co-ed schools and summer camps, mixed social events, movies, TV, secular books, magazines, and newspapers. Chevreh, there’s far too much schmutz in MO life and it is indulged in l’chatchilah. Shmiras Ha’eynayim isn’t even a topic for discussion. Yes, you see this problem in Charedi life, too, but the community standards are much tighter there. At least in Charedi communities, it’s considered shameful to attend movies. Not in the modern Orthodox world. How can Orthodox Jews read Shakespeare’s sonnets and not blush? How can they flip through the New York Times and avoid the ads there? How can they watch that thriller or that romantic comedy without checking their conscience at the door?
    Your turn now. Say what you have to say.

    • Steve Brizel says:

      Mr.Jay has posed some serious issues which if one looks at the MO landscape require some thinking about by those who defend MO as a lchatchilah option as opposed to a bdieved default position

      • Mycroft says:

        An MO that does not take shemiras Hamitzvot properly is not O. It may be a different sect but shemiras mitzvot and acceptance of Halachik system is essential.

      • Bob Miller says:

        Too many people live in a dream world, but their ideal of cultural cross-fertilization between Jews and the outside world collides with the reality that the world’s attitudes and standards are deteriorating ever more rapidly. Even some technologies we might consider value-neutral are mixed blessings. Yes, many gadgets can be helpful, but they are often packaged so as to promote immorality in practice.

    • Reb Yid says:

      Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

      Some react to the world in binary terms. They see the modern world as very confusing and threatening and wish for order, boundaries and a safe enclave to which they can retreat.

      Others see the diversity and nuances of the world as blessings (although not without challenges) and embrace them.

    • Bob Miller says:

      Too many people live in a dream world where their ideal of cultural cross-fertilization between Jews and the outside world collides with the reality that the world’s attitudes and standards are deteriorating ever more rapidly. Even some technologies we might consider value-neutral are mixed blessings. Yes, many gadgets can be helpful, but they are often packaged so as to promote immorality in practice.

    • dr, bill says:

      the fall off since the passing of people who are yechidim across multiple dorot is not unexpected. The likes of the Grash and the Rav ztl are rarely present. Someone like Rambam may never be seen again. They are unique gedolai olam that appear only rarely. This occurs in various secular disciplines as well

    • BF says:

      Mr. Jay, I am intrigued by some of your thoughts. Can you be contacted privately for further discussion?

  15. Matis says:

    Mr Jay, well said! Yasher Koach for your bravery to point out the white elephant in the room. You are absolutely correct.

    • Mycroft says:

      Nothing new. Everyone knows and has known for decades and it has been written about by MO advocates that the MO name mixes up two very different movements, a sociological MO lite movement and an intellectual committed movement to 100 percent observance of Yiddishkeit combined with confronting the impact of modernity on our lives

      • Mr. Jay says:

        Perhaps there’s something new in what I’ve said. Item #2 says that a liberal arts education is itself problematic.
        Someone on this site quoted a Rabbi Schiller, who apparently said that Modern Orthodoxy wasn’t about integrating romance novels and rap music, but Mozart and Shakespeare. But I maintain that Shakespeare is himself a big problem. And not just the bawdy jokes.

  16. matis says:

    Thank you Rabbi Gordimer for your continuous unwavering defense of traditional Torah Judaism and its values. Keep up the battle!

    • Mycroft says:

      Mr Jay
      That you oppose a liberal arts education is nothing new. People who reject MO have never believed in it except for Parnassah. A valid viewpoint as is the reverse. You choose to accept the Chareidi viewpoint fine. Others will accept a different viewpoint.

      • Mr. Jay says:

        But I used to be on the other side, Mycroft. That may be something new. I know the field intimately — at least in art, music, and literature. I daresay I’m more cultured than the average modern Orthodox American Jew. But I’ve looked deeply at the conceptual underpinnings of Western culture, and I see where they lead one astray.
        Oddly, I was helped there by a great teacher, Edward W. Tayler, at Columbia College. He had a remarkably clear grasp of the Western tradition, and taught his students things like this:
        “Since the Fall, every experience has had two names, and every name can refer to two experiences.” While this sounds so abstract as to be useless, it is a really a key to how the West sees post-lapsarian reality — as dual. Contrast this view with the Jewish approach — that all reality, while it seems ambiguous and even contradictory, is the expression of the unitary Divine will. Look carefully, Mycroft, at nearly every Western story. Two elements join, or one element disintegrates, or disintegration is followed by reintegration. (I know, very abstract; but bear with me.) The Jewish stories, on the other hand, often deal with how G-d’s will is revealed in a world that seems to be divorced from Him. Appropriately, the Jewish ideal is not integration, but self-perfection. Always striving to live up to an objective standard, not to merely balance conflicting values.
        You’ll excuse me if I haven’t worked this all out yet, but you see the direction I’m taking. I don’t think I’m wrong here, and if you’re going to debate me about the liberal arts, please make your case as best as you can. Heck, it’ll be fun for both of us.

  17. Steve Brizel says:

    Anthony Julius a great British lawyer ( who represented Deborah Lipstadt) very ably in the Case brought by David Irving Ymach Shmo wrote a superb book entitled Trials of the Diaspora which set forth that many of the greatest British writers ( Chaucer Shakespeare etc) indulged in anti Semitism in their writings and that the same was a prominent feature throughout many if not all of English literatures so callled greatest writers

    • Mycroft says:

      Are you stating that we should not read anything written by someone who has ever expressed anti-Semitic viewpoints? FWIW an interesting idea, certainly not what we were taught at YU. But an interesting idea

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Just read with caution and a good degree of salt and awareness of historical context .
        for years arguments have raged in Israel about performing any music of Wagner

      • Steve Brizel says:

        You can either read with caution a great deal of salt and view Anti Semitism as pervasive .Or you can raise the question of what reading such literature does for you as an Eves HaShem in today’s world

      • Bob Miller says:

        Steve Brizel, I’m not aware of Israeli objections to Robert Schumann’s music, so it’s a matter of degree.

    • Mycroft says:

      Mr Jay
      FWIW I have almost no interest in art, music and very little in literature. I am much more interested in reality, what happened and sciences. I do not attack those who spend what to me does not move me music, art and only rarely literature.
      Of course, I am not sure what you mean by Jewish stories, stories written by Jews, or just the sunset from out traditional midrashim etc

  18. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft -Wertheimer wrote that those in kiruv consider it a success if a persons Jewish consciousness is awoken Mitzvah by mitzvah and by learning even if the person that a mkarev is involved with does not become a full fledged Shomer Torah UMitzvos snd considered the work of community Kollelim Chabad and NCSY as demonstrating that Orthodoxy has vitality and interest in showing that experiencing Judaism whether over a text or a Shabbos mealand understanding the idea of doing or not going something because one is commanded by HaShem is something that the heterodox world coouldvand should learn from The choice of a would be BT to move in any direction remains the choice of the would be BT because Teshuvah is an individual step by step process

    • Mycroft says:

      Agreed, and biggest impact has been Jews becoming more active in Reform and Conservative synagogues. I agree that we are better off having aJew be active in Conservative and Reform Judaism than unaffiliated. Thus, kiruv helps keeping some Jews affiliated, but especially after the creative accounting that Werthheimer refers to one should not oversell the impact of kiruv in numbers. Obviously, any nefesh saved is worth an Olam but one has to compare costs of each decision with benefits.

  19. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft take a look st R D A Ferzigers article re community Kollelim and their effectiveness

    • Mycroft says:

      Mr Trencher
      Money and cost were two of the top four items ,, cost of Jewish schooling 89%, cost of maintaining an Orthodox home tied for third and fourth at 56%. The financial aspects of remaining or becoming Orthodox are ignored by our leaders and frankly by many commentators. Of course, by nature of things leaders are certainly above average economic status bloggers on websites tend to be above average in socioeconomic status. More important when discussing what people do the financial cost and explaining how our less fortunate will be able to partake of what we believe is Dvar Hashem is rarely mentioned.

    • Mycroft says:

      Thanks,I read Ferzigers article. Interesting reading but does not change anything.FWIW he refers to an MO community kollel in my general area. It no longer exists, when it existed I used to go to shiurim there. Of course, sad part is that despite some excellent lecturers /shiur givers there were very few community attendees. How do I know I was often the only one attending certain shiurim.
      Community kollelim are important primarily I think that it has made shidduch in between very skilled people and some have stayed on to become Senior Rabbis in local schuls. I can certainly think of R E Goldberg in Boca Raton and Rabbi Blau in Cleveland .

      • Steve Brizel says:

        There are at least two big shuls in Chicago whose rabbanim started out as kollrlniks in a BMG Kollel there

    • Reb Yid says:

      This is to reply to your last comment in the racism thread, since the comments area for it is now closed:

      https://projects.newsday.com/long-island/real-estate-agents-investigation/

      https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/11/business/jpmorgan-banking-racism.html

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Anything written in the NYT on racism deserves to be taken with a great deal of skepticism given the complete lack of historical evidence supporting the 1619 project

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Would you want to live in a high crime and drug infested area? Would you advise your daughter if she was a Barnard student to walk in Morningside Park or any urban park At night? Advising in the negative is not racist .most liberals and progressives are so until they have been mugged to quote a famous conservative William F Buckley

      • Reb Yid says:

        Mr Brizel:

        The Times article merely reported the FACT that Chase paid $24 million to settle a class action suit based on racial discrimination. The Times article also contains the actual recordings of the additional conversations. Judge these items for what they are instead of castigating the whistle blower as you’re ignoring the central point.

        And you offered no comment on the explosive Newsday expose.

        Tips of the iceberg.

        It’s very challenging to deny the undeniable. So give it a rest.

      • Steve Brizel says:

        I made my point Being able to walk home safely from
        Shul and without fear of being mugged or subjected to anti Semitic epithets on a street in daylight is what I call a legitimate expectation that’s something that was missing in the Newsdsmsy article The NYT piece merely reported on one lawsuit and settlement which isn’t proof of inherent racism

      • Steve Brizel says:

        Newsday so called “expose” merely illustrates that you can’t force anyone to live in a crime and drug infested area and that you can’t force people in the US to live in such areas . That is why there has been an exodus from inner cities to outer boroughs or suburbs by anyone who can afford to move

      • StevevBrizel says:

        Anything the NYT publishes on this or any issue should be taken with a deep grain of salt .one settlement in a class action isn’t proof of anything nor is the desire of people to live securely in their communities or homes racist Fake news is fake news what happened in Jersey City and Morningside Park is real news

  20. Very true, Reb Yid. In the 2017 survey of the MO community, the cost of Jewish education ranked as the #1 problem area among 27 issues raised.
    % saying it’s a “serious problem” (Top 10)
    Cost of Jewish schooling 89%
    Agunot 69%
    People with inappropriate middot 56%
    Cost of maintaining an Orthodox home 56%
    People dishonest in business 53%
    Anti-Semitism 43%
    People lacking love for others in the community 42%
    Shidduch process 42%
    People feeling isolated 36%
    Adequacy of funds to meet community needs 36%

  21. Steve Brizel says:

    Take a look at a teen originated and developed program about texting on Shabbos in The NJ Jewish Links which called for greater sense of Kedushas Shabbos by all and designating a common are for all family members to place cell phones before Shabbos percentage of texting in polll conducted by programs founders was27%

  22. BF says:

    Mr. Jay, can you be contacted privately for further discussion of the points you raise? Thanks.

  23. Steve Brizel says:

    Reb Yid the suspect in the Morningdide Heights murder is 13 years old Ask the cvivtomd parents if they would appreciate living next to such an individual

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