News and Essays In and Out of Orthodoxy – Parshas Shelach 5776
Rabbonim Issue Call for Action on Child Abuse and Molestation and Call to Action
Judaism: Behaalotcha (Diaspora): The gap year – A must-read.
The Bostoner Rebbe of Beit Shemesh, zt”l
Rabbi Avraham Yaakov Finkel z”l
Rabbanit Yael Cohen, a”h and Rebbetzin predicted her own death
Chabad rabbis oppose modern Orthodox eruv in Crown Heights and Rabbi Heller: Crown Heights Eruv Is Reform Judaism
Chief Rabbi responds to Abbas’ incitement
Ivanka Trump and rabbinic corruption – The takeaway here is the opposite of what is argued; the GPS geirus program must be supported and insisted upon, rather than leaving geirus in the hands of every individual rabbi with his own standards, no matter how good they may be.
How a Principal’s Speech About Orlando Is Comforting LGBT Students in Orthodox Schools – I am quite uncomfortable with this. People with same-sex attraction should be privately counseled and worked with, but when a message is taken to defend public LGBT group identity, it is another story. (Please see the video and its caption, as the Tablet article does not adequately describe the speech.)
The formerly Orthodox American Jews: The stricter they were, the farther away they run – This study does not take into account one very major factor: mental health. Although people leave Torah observance for various reasons, in many cases there is an underlying mental health element. I have no idea how prevalent it is, but we have all seen it, and its omission here means that we do not have the full story.
Secret minutes of Yemenite children affair to be published and ‘Yemenite children affair’ awakens
Why 100 NY Jews Brought Goats to This Moroccan Village
‘Google of the Bible’ launches after five-year development
A glimpse into Azerbaijan’s hidden all-Jewish town
I was made to feel like a mass murderer over female ordination, says women’s seminary founder – A quote that appeals to the emotions rather than to the substance of the issue at hand. Please also see the end of this article.
When receiving semikha becomes ritual – Circular logic: Ordaining women as rabbis is a legitimate ritual because we decided it is and invented it.
A TRADITIONAL SCHOOL OF YEMENITE RATIONALISM
God must not be our top priority, says Orthodox rabbinical revolutionary
God is ALWAYS First! (A Response to Rabbi Hartman)
Readers should please note that the omission of any newsworthy and topical articles or essays does not imply that these articles or essays were felt to not be of import. (For example, this important article.) Rather, articles and essays which have already very much “gotten around” are often not featured, unless there is some added commentary or follow-up.
Last week’s installment of Weekly Digest – News and Essay In and Out of Orthodoxy can be viewed here.
Regarding the mental health issue- I find this response to be condescending. Would R’ Gordimer apply the same logic to a poll about Ba’al Teshuvas? Would we assume that their frumkeit is the product of mental health issues rather than one of open intellectual inquiry and questioning of the values in which they were raised?
Has anyone considered the idea that facing harsh criticism from and sometimes being completely rejected by one’s entire family and social support and communal structure would decrease an individual’s mental health?
Let me please clarify, as your point is of course good. I refer to people who were unstable prior to going “OTD”. It is a very sad situation, but I have observed many such cases, in which going “OTD” was not based on ideological considerations, but was part of a general breakdown of the person due to mental health issues. Those people, when asked, may cite Judaism’s position on a number of issues as the reason that they are no longer frum, but that is not the real reason.
You sound like Pravda.
My words were not read. Please read what I wrote above.
I think I did. Now you write “It may be a tiny fraction, but it exists,” but above you wrote “one very major factor: mental health.”
Shimmy, Akiva and Gene: By “major”, I meant qualitatively major, not quantitatively major. That is why I wrote, “I have no idea how prevalent it is”. But I apologize for any lack of clarity.
R’ Gordimer: You may wish this “gem” to your hyperlinks: http://www.timesofisrael.com/god-must-not-be-our-top-priority-says-orthodox-rabbinical-revolutionary/
Rabbi Gordimer:
“This study does not take into account one very major factor: mental health.”
I’m not sure what you mean. Mental health of the one who goes off the derech, mental health of the parents, or mental health of the ones who run the society that they are in (for example, those sects who get involved “intimately” with the couple’s private business, which has no place in Halacha and is a significant part of a recent publicized event of OTD and suicide, unfortunately).
Could you please clarify? Or do you mean all three?
On the other side (“Call to action”), I’m extremely pleased that rabbaim and camps will have training and awareness on molestation and personal body issues. About time. Another sign of the times is the push for cameras in men’s mikvaos in Israel (why Rabbonim and not the police, I don’t understand, but at least they are realizing it is a problem).
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/434766/security-cameras-installed-in-a-number-of-jerusalem-mikvaos.html
Of course, plenty of people go off the derech do so for reasons unrelated to mental health, but there are some people who are mentally unstable and who go off the derech as part of their general departure from the lifestyle and routine of their upbringing. I have seen this numerous times.
I am not denying the various other reasons that people go OTD, but this is one reason which was not mentioned in the survey, and I believe that it should not be overlooked.
As well as lack of money, location, etc.
Also worth pointing out that the Amish also have a higher retention rate for the more strict orders.
http://amishamerica.com/how-fast-are-the-amish-growing/
“Eli Blum
June 28, 2016 at 11:07 am
As well as lack of money, location, etc.
Also worth pointing out that the Amish also have a higher retention rate for the more strict orders”
One can’t forget the Amish teenagers Rumspringa-if we were to permit something like that we might have more success keeping people frum at 25. Of course, I’m far from a halachik expert but I don’t see how a similar approach could be permitted for our teenagers.
I loved how the OTD panel at the Agudah Convention started moving away from this outdated concept of why people go OTD.
It is, in one way, self-serving (“nobody really okay would leave Judaism”) but also shooting ourselves in the foot, as it impairs our ability to actually address the issues that drive people away.
Let’s follow the example of Rabbi Lob and other panelists, do a little introspection, and realize that there are very legit, non-mental reasons that people leave Judaism.
Rabbi lob was a good example—- since his sib is OTD and NOT mentally ill, he could speak the truth….
Sorry, here is a great response by R’ Zev Shandalov in TOI in response to Hartman’s interview, showing how he did not properly present the context in Sefer Yeshaya.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/god-is-always-first-a-response-to-rabbi-hartman/
“How a Principal’s Speech About Orlando Is Comforting LGBT Students in Orthodox Schools – I am quite uncomfortable with this. People with same-sex attraction should be privately counseled and worked with, but when a message is taken to defend public LGBT group identity, it is another story.”
Right on with that critique. Shameful pandering by the SAR principal. Trying to be fashionable and politically correct, rather than Torah correct. I am not too surprised though, after all, the school is in the same neighborhood as YCT.
And he compounds it by trying to use the Rambam to support his pandering as well. Disgraceful. The Rambam is not talking about such a situation. מגלה פנים בתורה שלא כהלכה ר”ל.
I am uncomfortable with calling SAR an orthodox school. While a portion of the faculty and students are orthodox, the values of the school borrow too much from secular culture.
Get over it. Maimonides, HAFTR, Ramaz, and others are not fundamentally different. In fact, as I have heard SAR maintains a more religious environment. I overcame my strong aversion to schools not teaching an adequate secular curriculum in violation of rabbinic edict and still label then as orthodox.
Remember as well that if the matzav article linked to with the Noviminsker’s new found passion about abuse is even partially accurate, (i find one in five staggering and hard to fathom) the abuse rate at SAR and their procedures for managing to prevent abuse is a good role model for other schools, orthodox and otherwise.
I have heard otherwise. Glad people hear things.
SAR hires many teachers currently or formerly learning in Maharat/YCT. Lisa Schlaf their Judaic Studies coordinator has just is a big name is JOFA and Drisha. SAR was part of teffilin- gate a few years ago .
Haftar and Maimonides are very different schools as SAR. Every year a handful of SAR’s students discuss options where to go post highschool one of the options given a a viable choice is Nativ (conservative year course) and yearly a couple of their students go.
More than a quarter of the school goes to camp ramah in the summer. When i asked students if they have ever heard anything about not going to conservative institutions from the judaic staff at SAR they say no (and that this is the first time they heard it would be wrong theologically to attend such institutions ).
There is little to no imparting of orthododox values on these students as the Larry and Reader has said. SAR and Ramaz are much closer to high-schools like Hecshel than is to Maimonides and Haftar.
SAR and Ramaz like Maimonides and HAFTR are elementary and high schools.
SAR like Maimonides and Ramaz attract a non-trivial number of non-orthodox students from conservative homes. Such was the rule across many MO schools before schools began segregating out the non-X, be that full-time learner, black-hatted, etc. SAR does a fabulous job NOT focusing on what is wrong with X or Y. You call it non-orthodox; i call it very tolerant (and filling a needed niche.) It’s students attend a variety of institutions in their gap year. All things considered Ramah and Nativ are among the prize assets that represent the right leaning wing of the conservative movement ideologically.
Take a look at the level of textual knowledge and adherence to Mitzvos of a typical SAR grad and compare the same with a typical YCQ grad in any high school which they might attend and then you might be able to realize that different grads from different MO elementary schools are far more textually proficient and adherent to mitzvos than others.
True-but you will find grads of SAR and RAMAZ who are far more observant today than they were upon their graduation. That being said, there is a huge difference between counseling an individual with SSA as opposed to legitimizing group identity.
Why do I need to get over a school with secular values masquerading as providing a Torah education?
Ramaz is more a kiruv opportunity than an Orthodox school. I do not know about the other schools.
How about instances of drug abuse as set forth in the FTJT article? One would hope that an Asifas Tefilah followed by a communal raising of the conscience of the community in addition to prompt, discrete and proper means of treating such students would at least be a priority of the schools that you named and certainly as important if not so than legitimizing a group whose raison de etre flies in the face of a Mitzvas Lo Saaseh ( Vayikra 18:22).
Agreed
Great reply Larry… and very true.
Recognizing the problems of the individual should never be confused with legitimizing the prohibited. I agree with the prior reader’s assessment of the speech by the SAR principal.
To blithely attribute a lifestyle change you do not approve of to mental health struggles is patently offensive to those of us who have friends and family who struggle with depression, anxiety, ADHD, and numerous other medical conditions. Oh, s/he converted? S/he went OTD? S/he is a BT? For the purposes of my promulgating my narrow hashkafic worldview there is a mental health issue contributing to a personal lifestyle change choice. I have no doubt that the statistical occurrence of mental health issues in the UO, MO, OO, and any other segment of the Jewish Community is in line with any other community in the US. Go talk to Dr. Yitzchak Schechter. Go talk to Dr. David Pelkovitz. Go talk to Rabbi Nati Helfgot. Come and talk to me or any number of people who struggle..Yes, you disclaimed it by writing “Although people leave Torah observance for various reasons”. But speculation like that is frankly Trumpian. Instead of honest discussion, let’s misdirect and get everyone talking about something else.
Rabbi Gordimer, I know you as a tremendous masmid from our time together in shiur over 25 years ago. And I value your weekly link aggregations. But you shouldn’t stir the pot with throwaway comments like this.
My words were totally misunderstood. I do not disagree with one word that you wrote.
It may be that 99.99% of those who go OTD do so for a variety of philosophical and theological reasons, yet there are those, however many or few they may be, who also go OTD (and who also drop out of many other areas of life) due to instability.
For example: There were two families in a frum neighborhood in which I used to reside whose kids were mostly OTD – of the 10 or so kids of these two families, 8 were OTD. These families were known – and it was observable a mile away – to be extremely unstable: drugs, arrests, hospitalization for mental illness, etc. When the kids from these families dropped Orthodox identification, it was clear that it was not due to their philosophical perplexities, but as a result of their general breakdown.
That is all I meant. It may be a tiny fraction, but it exists, and I do ***NOT*** deny the many other more “noble” reasons that people go OTD.
If you are saying that it is possible that only .01% leave due to mental illness, then how can you write that this study is missing a “major factor”, which is found in “many cases”? It would appear that your statement here contradicts your comments above and that this article gives a 99.99% complete picture and should be treated as such.
i agree. If r gordimer is to e anything other than a reckless hitman, he need retract such scurilous accusations… The new study released last week did NOT list mental illness as a reason people chose to go OTD
Please retract this remark. Obviously the mentally ill were not surveyed….
If this is the case, then you misrepresented your own position with your words. You stated (for the sake of not having to scroll up again):
“…[I]n many cases there is an underlying mental health element. I have no idea how prevalent it is, but we have all seen it, and its omission here means that we do not have the full story”
By saying “in many cases” you are implying that it is a relevant percentage of the population who choose to go OTD. If you do not believe that it is a relevant percentage, then your statement has no real meaning.
Any analysis of information is going to have to leave out extraneous cases that are not sufficiently relevant to be worth mentioning. If only 0.01% of people who go OTD choose to do so for mental health reasons, then mentioning their situation is not worth mentioning in the discussion because they are an anomaly, not the rule. It is akin to saying that a waterbottle is not full of water because there may be some iron filing in the water. That’s not relevant information when asking if the waterbottle has water in it, and the small percentage of individuals who go OTD for purposes of mental illness are not worth mentioning if trying to determine the general reasons why people choose to do so.
I personally have seen this phenomenon plenty, but my exposure to it may not be representative of the aggregate. That is why I wrote as I did. In other words, incidence may be very minimal, but it does merit mention.
Instead of either or, both intellectual and non-intellectual(whether or not diagnosable )causes can be true, since people are both rational and emotional creatures. R. Adlerstein wrote this in the recent Klal Perspectives:
“…I have met a good number who went beyond that, pointing to some of these issues as the reason they firmly chose to reject halacha, or even belief in G-d.
On the other hand, virtually every communal professional I’ve come across – left, right, and center – assured me that no one left observance because of intellectual issues alone. The challenges to belief inevitably followed issues of a different nature, usually dealing with family dynamics, abuse or personal unhappiness. The intellectual issues sometimes served as a pretext for abandoning a Torah lifestyle, or the way in which a formerly Orthodox person justified to himself why he opted out.
“…My ophthalmologist – one of the absolute best in Beverly Hills – resolved the conflict… “But we prescribe the antibiotic because often enough the infection can be followed by a secondary, bacterial one. If you don’t ward off the secondary, you’ll be in trouble after the primary wanes.”
It may very well be that people discover deal-breaking intellectual issues with their adherence to Torah only after suffering some primary shock to their internal systems. Once established, however, these secondary problems have a life of their own, and persist even if the primary cause for dissatisfaction is remedied.”
“The challenges to belief inevitably followed issues of a different nature, usually dealing with family dynamics, abuse or personal unhappiness”
Personal unhappiness in youngsters is often school related-we’d be better off not forcing unhappy children to stay within the day school system.
Take a look at last week’s FTJT and a front page story about the Petirah of a young man from a heroin overdose. If we deny that such a problem exits, then we really don’t even understand how OTD conduct manifests itself, except when we read obituaries.
The key factors have been and remain family, education and community, and how someone who is OTD thinks that he or she was disserved by the same. Baruch HaShem, we have a large number of therapists such as the great individuals who you mentioned who deal with such issues. Yet, we should not view a statistical curve as the guide to how we as individuals or a community relate to what may very well be what the Maharam Shick meant in including Hashavas HaNefesh ( and the Neshama) as part of Hashavas Aveidah. We should be upset, as opposed to being merely blase. tolerant or acting if the same doesn’t bother us because eachsuch individual is potentially a lost neshama
“”This study does not take into account one very major factor: mental health. Although people leave Torah observance for various reasons, in many cases there is an underlying mental health element. I have no idea how prevalent it is, but we have all seen it, and its omission here means that we do not have the full story.”
This is a new low, even for you. To dismiss people who go OTD as “crazy” instead of some honest introspection about our community, to think of mental illness of something that causes people to not think like you instead of something that may exacerbated by risk factors present in a community they can no longer identify with, or something exacerbated by the sudden lost of community, family, and support networks…..its misguided, offensive, and insensitive.
You know what is a major factor in people going OTD, though? Smug rabbis who continually attempt to narrow the definitions of Orthodoxy to the point of asphyxiation. If you had taught me in high school, I’d probably be OTD. And then you’d probably blame that on my depression, or my anxiety, or my Asperger’s.
Actually, smugness is the definition of OO and Beit Hillel type of groups who smugly believe that the values represented by feminist thought and theory, and LGQBT rights are so superior to Torah prohibitions, that they must be circumvented and pushed to a corner not to be mentioned. Smugness is the beiief that we should always be progressive, that no liberal social value cannot be rejected, inspite the Torah demanding otherwise. Anyway, OO will turn many baalei teshuvah coming in to Yiddishkeit off exactly because it desires to be nuture and accept the value the baal teshuvah is trying to reject, to move away from.
This is not a response. This is a “I know you are, but what am I?”
No, that’s your logic, not mine.
Actually, when you read the survey and anything else written on the subject of OTD, the triad of issues of family, education and community are viewed as the factors that precipitate inquiry. Denial that the same may have mental health connotations is as much an attempt to narrow the realm of discussion as much as the view that mental health issues are the sole cause of the same, which IMO was not at all meant by R Gordimer. Casting the issue too narrowly avoids focusing on the cause. Take a look at a discussion at OU.org in response to a column by R S Pruzansky on the issue of OTD adolescents. Many of the responses came be fairly viewed as a denial that parents have any responsibility for the conduct of their children, despite paying exorbitant tuitions and being members of communal institutions that demand financial contributions such as dues, building funds and numerous appeals in a very tough economic market.
I suspect that the same issues which drives a chareidi OTD, may lead to other issues as those that you describe (“drugs, arrests, mental hospitalization, the whole gamut.”) From my observation of the OTD individuals in my MO community, this phenomena is rare. (in my community of a few hundred families I am aware of three such cases of OTD and arrests and /or drug related issues in the past 35 years.)
If the (one in five) statistic in The Matzav article is even remotely close to accurate, I would not be surprised. Frankly, I think (and pray) that is wildly incorrect.
My sense is that abuse and same-sex attraction are significant factors insufficiently addressed.
R Ronny Greenwald ZL was all too familiar with far too many such instances and worse-kids born out of wedlock, drug addiction, etc.
“first hand evidence-that the nine OTD youths on his block have been involved with drugs, arrests, mental hospitalization, the whole gamut. They are unstable people by every definition, and they all are OT”
It is possible/likely that OTD students from at the latest junior high on have been told that they are not welcome in our community-usually not by the parents but explicitly or implicitly by school mechanchim.
In terms of your problems with “LGBT group identity”, let me ask you a pragmatic question:
Let’s say you have a 13-14 year old guy who, in the course of growing up, finds he’s attracted to other guys.
You would like him to seek private counseling with a rabbi and not make any noise about it.
Let’s say that getting someone with such an attraction to rabbinic counseling is the goal.
How do you intend on letting that kid know that such counseling is an option, if its so private?
All he ever hears from his rabbinic superiors, in all likelihood, is how evil gay marriage is, and how the values of American society are crumbling due to the homosexual agenda. How is he supposed to know, how is he supposed to even work up the courage, to go to his rabbi and say “that thing you said is evil and destroying our society in your speech last week? I find myself wanting to do that”.
If our goal is to get that kid to rabbinic counseling and support in their journey navigating the tension between who they are and the community they wish to be a part of, and I think we agree on that, then we need to be more mindful of how we speak on these issues, first of all, and second of all, some allowance to be able to publicly acknowledge who they are and find support systems for their struggles is in order. What doesn’t solve anything, on the other hand, is telling gay people that they ought to keep everything secret. Unless your goal is not actually to help them, but just to keep yourself from having to deal with them.
For sure, greater effort is needed to let people know that they are encouraged, welcome and really need to confide in their rabbis and share these personal issues and struggles, in an effort to access help and receive guidance. Public statements against gay marriage et al are in reaction to a phenomenon and are at times needed in order to defend tradition and provide clarity; no one enjoys having to publicly condemn gay marriage or other popular sentiments.
And to be exceedingly frank and honest, its frustrating that you see yourself as qualified to issue these condemnations from your perch as an OU Kashrut coordinator without having the responsibilities of a communal rabbi to actually deal with these issues and these people in the real world, instead of merely seeing them as pawns in a great ideological battle. If you actually had the responsibility of dealing with actual gay people in your community, of dealing with a diverse community full of different types of people who don’t all conform to a single mold of what you imagine Orthodoxy to be, it seems to me that your tone on this and other issues might be different. And, consequently, if you don’t actually have to deal with actual people in an actual community, then you’re just a guy at a computer with opinions. It strikes me as unfair that you get to make the mess, you get to do real damage to people’s psyches and to communal fabrics, and then communal rabbis have to clean up after you.
The views R’ Gordimer expresses are consistent with the statements of many “communal” rabbis (of which you’re not either, are you?), so your point is not valid.
No, Arthur, Akiva means “left-wing” communal rabbis. Otherwise, communal rabbis with R’ Gordimer’s views will create a mess (according to Akiva’s logic).
One of the most famous rationales offered by the Mfarshim on Chumash with respect to the chok of adherence to Kashrus is to avoid impurity via what one eats. Perhaps, we need more rabbanim who are willing to confront the acceptance of the PC, and the substitution , intentional or otherwise, of how the Torah views relationships between the genders and the statement that a normal marriage between a man and woman is the only permissible means of consecrating sexual relations, by the contemporary Zeitgeist, as opposed to legitimizing the behavior on a group level that the Torah clearly condemns. Far too many posts on this thread simply IMO seem unaware or worse, even embarrassed by Vayikra 18:4 and 22.
Okay, tough guy on the internet. You’re a rabbi and a 14 year old kid walks into your office and says “I’m gay”. He’s confused, he’s afraid, he’s full of anxiety. Do you say what you just said to him?
Akiva Weisinger asked:
“Okay, tough guy on the internet. You’re a rabbi and a 14 year old kid walks into your office and says “I’m gay”. He’s confused, he’s afraid, he’s full of anxiety. Do you say what you just said to him?”
I think that if I were a rav or rebbe and a student initiated the above conversation at a meeting, I would first definitely say in the course of a conversation together with a recommendation that he see a therapist on the Nefesh membership list who has an expertise in SSA among adolescents , that we have commenced the beginning of a dialogue and chavrusa on this and any other issue which he wants to discuss at any mutually convenient time will be kept totally confidential, and that we would love to have him as a guest at our Shabbos table.
That being a given, I would comment that you have presented your conclusion of who you think you are at a remarkably young age but that he should always have an open mind to the Torah’s views on any issue, as well as remember and think about the following:
1) One of the most famous rationales offered by the Mfarshim on Chumash with respect to the chok of adherence to Kashrus is to avoid impurity via what one eats. The Torah views relationships between the genders via a normal marriage between a man and woman as the only permissible means of consecrating sexual relations. You cannot judge the Torah’s values of Kedusha by the contemporary Zeitgeist, or ask for legitimization of behavior on a group level that the Torah clearly condemns.” IOW, one cannot and should not judge the Torah and any of the values in the Torah and TSBP by your contemporary sense of judgment , regardless of the well informed or not so informed nature of the source.
2)I would also ask the student to open a Sefer Kedusha of the Rambam and ask him what constitutes Sefer Kedusha-Kashrus and marital and sexually related prohibitions. I would also ask the student to look at a Machzor for YK and ask him to look at the Krias HaTorah for Mincha-and ask him why we read the Parsha of Arayos-we would look thru the various commentaries and I would suggest that we both look at the Machzor HaRav and the views of RYBS cited therein that the adherence to the Issurim contained therein are part and parcel of what is called Kedusha as well as RYBS’s views cited in Family Redeemed that homosexuality is a very similar to Kilayim in terms of how the issur is formulated.
3)I think that the above proposed means of discussion offers far more positive room for reconsideration of a POV by an adolescent in the rebbe-talmid relationship than the automatic responses of condemnation or acceptance.
So basically your reaction to a kid coming in and telling you that they’re gay is to give them homework on how terrible they are? The kid knows its an aveirah to have gay sex. He doesn’t need that reminder right now. He hates himself enough, more than enough. He needs help figuring out how to live with himself and how to stay on the path of halakhic observance despite the difficulty God has put in his way. The kind of approach you’re suggesting is good if you want gay kids committing suicide, but its not real great at getting them to stay even nominally Orthodox. If dead teenagers is the price you’re willing to pay for ideological clarity, by all means.
Since the case of 15 years ago where the National Jewish Commission on Law and Public Affairs, in amici curiæ succesfully got the NY Ct of Appeals to rule that one can’t sue a clergyman who violated ones confidential disclosures -why should one trust such person to keep confidential disclosures private
Please. We all trust people in our lives who are not categorically liable for disclosure to keep confidences confidential.
Please-clergymen penitent conversations were considered privileged in NY law. Since the case where the higher ct ruled that one could not sue the Rabbi who repeated to the opposing party words stated in confidence how can anyone trust a Rabbi to keep what is told in confidence confidential. Thus, sadly Rabbis who were probably the best people to discuss personal relationship issues since that case may be people one should be careful about going for guidance on issues. It is sad.
It doesn’t matter if you enjoy it or not, what matters is what kind of message its sending to a 14 year old kid who is in a personal hell and needs help out of it, and it seems to me the message we’re sending that kid is “you deserve to be there”.
And a step in the right direction of the greater effort you speak of, namely, “to let people know that they are encouraged, welcome and really need to confide in their rabbis and share these personal issues and struggles”, is for those people to be able to come out as gay and not be told that that automatically makes them a sinner. I’m curious, have you spoken to any gay people about what you can do to let people know they are encouraged and welcome in our communities and able to get rabbinic guidance?
Your comment unfortunately illustrates my contention-the demand for acceptance ipso facto means thata violation of Vayikra 18:22 is declared Batul Mvutal. I think that what you describe as “help” means legitimization, as opposed to seeking either help from a rav, rebbe or therapist in a non judgmental manner even where some one who might think he is gay might very well be married kdaas Moshe VYisrael, and how he might well deal with SSA.
There is a not insubstantial difference between referring an adolescent young man to a therapist and legitimizing and/or rationalizing what the Torah views as prohibited behavior as an individual and his or her means of identity.
There is a not insubstantial difference between legitimizing and/or rationalizing what the Torah views as prohibited behavior as an individual and allowing people to be honest about the issues that face them and not have to fear communal condemnation for merely asking for help. Please do not straw man my argument by saying I am legitimizing or rationalizing non-halakhic behavior. I am not saying that. All I’m asking for is the statement “I am gay” to not be confused as “I am a sinner” or “I reject halakha”.
How can people be helped to correct or mitigate their vices when others have convinced them that these are virtues?
What about Milt’s BBQ?
The people who pounce on Rabbi Gordimer for saying the obvious should be ashamed of themselves. First of all there are the famous cases, like the woman who left with tremendous mental health issues (who had them before she left and) who took her own life last summer. In my immediate family there’s only one who lost a child. That son was the first-born, a genius, and he passed away when he was ready to go learn in Israel. That’s also the only family with 2 younger kids who then went OTD (one of whom B”H came back). The father himself talked about how his son’s death had rocked the family, and even though no one says so, we all know that’s why they had trouble with their (surviving) children.
Everyone knows this “study” was one of those “we’re not Orthodox but we pretend to understand them” about us, beginning with “so many Orthodox Jews choose to leave Orthodoxy.” If they had asked how many of those who got a full day school education leave Orthodoxy, they would have figured out what everyone knows: older people who were “Orthodox” because they used to pray in Orthodox synagogues as children are not the Orthodox of today who almost always go to day school. The study is way off, and so are the people criticizing Rabbi Gordimer for pointing out one of its biggest flaws.
But I [Doniel Hartman] always told my classes: You will stop being my student the minute you don’t eat in your parents’ home.
It seems all his invoking of pluralism is a sham. You can be a Reform Jew, but don’t ever weigh conflicting values like family vs. kashrut in ways that disagree with Hartman. Then you are an apikores.
Yes, I found that statement very problematic. Basically, he seems to say “better to eat treif/non-kosher than to hurt a parent”, which contrary to clear halacha!
Look at the interview carefully -does it begin to address the real hashkafic question of why be Jewish in the year 2016? What is the basis for adhering to even the selective mitzvos that he emphasizes such as the so-called “pop up calendar days” if not for the Divine Intervention in Egypt and Divine Revelation? Does such a program offer a realistic basis at all for transmission of any values to the next generation? As in the case of his father RDH, ZL, I think that the answer is negative because he denies the fact that if you love HaShem , maintaining that relationship requires hard work which are best described in the elements known as Torah, Avodah and Gmilus Chasadim.
the issue is much more nuanced. if the choice is a pork chop or bacon and eggs or offending your parents, i think all would agree to offend your parents. but the choices are most often less dramatic. An NCSY advisor called a orthodox rabbi from a starbucks and asked about a newly minted baalat teshuva who was just called by her mother to bring home an item she wanted from starbucks of questionable kashrut. he wanted an instant answer. Rabbi Hartman would have agreed with the answer.
Hartman’s own expression of this demand of his students lacks any nuance. You are the one trying to make it nuanced when he setting down a take or leave it rule that seems to ignore that halacha. I can tell you from experience, as a baal teshuvah, that this not an issue with having a Starbucks muffin. It involves such basic kashrus prohibitions found in a non-frum home like basar b’chalav, which unfortunately is quite common.
The rabbi did not qualify what he said – true, but reading charitably, is an oft overlooked element of judging with a bias to absolve. the issue of baasar ve’cholov is significant, but biblical instances are less frequent than rabbinic ones where other factors for leniency get more heft in many situations. if the issue comes down to kibbud av ve’aim and eating marginally kosher in a non-kosher home, i would bias towards leniency.
Re OTD and mental health: From my experiences working in and around various kiruv organizatiotns, the incidence of mood and personality disorders is way higher among those who become frum than in the general population. In fact, we had discussions about how different yeshivas and organizations had different thresholds for people who were too unstable to take on.
In other words, between kiruv and OTD its probably a wash.
While there are undoubtedly those who would use my personal example to prove your point, I disagree nonetheless. It is certainly higher, as mood and personality disorders are both liable to spur profound changes, but the incidence is not “way” higher, and the vast majority of those becoming frum are, by and large, stable. It is my observation that they also have higher incidences of divorce and a greater likelihood to have OTD children, yet neither of these is “way” higher either. None are in any way unexpected or disordinate.
Perhaps of greater relevance is that observance seems to have an overall beneficial impact upon mental stability, and both the newly-frum and OTD appear to evidence this.
In finding reasons Jews give up religious observance, one must be careful in attributing it primarily to mental health problems, or dysfunctional families and the such. The fact of the matter is that in the second half of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th the MAJORITY of Jews who grew up in religious families, including many those from the “best families” and the most famous Hasidic courts gave up religious observance, with some going all the way to becoming Communists and other persecutors of religious Jews. This was because of the perception that many felt that the Torah had no answers to the existential questions that young Jews of that era faced. Of course, the surrounding societies have changed…the modern welfare state and increased general prosperity has eased the economic pressure Jews were under in that period. Add to that the now-prevailing “Post-Modernist/New Age” philosophy which makes the surrounding society more tolerant of “exotic” religions and lifestyles, in addition to a general disillusionment with science and technology which seemed to be an ongoing challenge to the religious world-view of the time. This has undoubtedly contributed to the success of modern Orthodox/religious society in keeping young Jews in the fold.
Having said all of this, the challenges that era posed have not disappeared and should the economic change for the worse and should rising antisemitism in the US and Europe bring decreasing tolerance for the Orthdox/religious communites, the same large-scale OTD crisis reappear, so the religious community should learn how to cope with the existential questions I mentioned that even today help drive a significant number of young Jews out of the community.
Surprised you left out the times of israel article on the primary challenge to cong nadler by an openly gay O YU grad, challenging his israel cred after iran vote. But i dont think too many O voters of any stripe are comfy with ‘ openly gay ‘ … Should be a nadler landslide… But why did charedi mags take the challenger’s ads?
Akiva Weisinger wrote:
“So basically your reaction to a kid coming in and telling you that they’re gay is to give them homework on how terrible they are? The kid knows its an aveirah to have gay sex. He doesn’t need that reminder right now. He hates himself enough, more than enough. He needs help figuring out how to live with himself and how to stay on the path of halakhic observance despite the difficulty God has put in his way. The kind of approach you’re suggesting is good if you want gay kids committing suicide, but its not real great at getting them to stay even nominally Orthodox. If dead teenagers is the price you’re willing to pay for ideological clarity, by all ”
I didn’t say homework-I said a chavrusa-to learn the sources and have an open mind. You seem to think that one should neither learn the sources nor have an open mind, but rather an unequivocal acceptance. IOW, you want a monolgue with a guaranteed answer of acceptance, which implies dictating the ground rules with no participation of a therapist or any discussion of the relevant sources. Take a look at the following approach of one rav whose POV I fully concur with on the issue.http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/seeing-the-rainbow-in-grey-rather-than-black-and-white-lgbt-the-orthodox-community/#utm_content=buffer695f6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=plus.google.com&utm_campaign=buffer
I reject your notion that merely referring an adolescent for therapy while asking that a rebbe and talmid engage in a dialogue via Talmud Torah in any way resembles encouraging a tortured individual to act inappropriately.