J’Accuse. You Have Hurt Me, Lisa

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10 Responses

  1. mb says:

    ” requires us to love every Jew, ”
    Actually, it requires us to love the stranger, those not like us.

    [Two separate mitzvos: to love every Jew, and to love the Ger. –YM]

  2. Shades of Gray says:

    “but despite what you claimed in your essay, at no time did the website you mentioned ever refer to a person as to’eva, just a parade”

    The same article spoke about “Toeiva groups”, “Since the 1990s, Toeiva groups have held an annual mega-parade in the largely-secular Tel Aviv.

    One comment on the above website asked, “Why doesn’t the yeshiva world refer in stories about cheating in business as “Toeva business”. It says Toeva by even shlaima”

    I think the answer has also to do with the values of tzniyus, rather than homosexuality; it’s more an issue of modestly using a euphemism for sexuality, rather than than homosexuality per se. If there was a *heterosexual* parade advocating loose values, it might also be euphemistically referred to as a “taavah”(lustful), parade.

    [Very true. And I was imprecise when I referred only to the parade. The point is that the groups, as well, are organizations promoting a lifestyle or behavior. There as well it’s not a condemnation of people. –YM]

  3. Moshe Shoshan says:

    The author in question often writes very harsh things, generally about people to the left. This never seemed to bother you. When she turns her venom at “unsers”
    suddenly you are shocked and hurt. If you were as concerned about unfair attacks and generalizations against non-charedim, I might have more sympathy for you.

    [I don’t read her regularly. I had to be referred to this article by a friend in order to notice it, at which point my jaw dropped. I think you’re looking too hard for a reason not to judge my post on its merits. –YM]

  4. tzippi says:

    Rabbi Menken, I appreciate this article and may well pass on the link. I will add my voice to those who commented on the related article that whatever points we need to make, it can only be after using our same voice to roundly condemn this atrocity.

  5. dr. bill says:

    Rabbi Menken, I agree that chareidi/orthodox communities have very low homicide rates. But spitting, burning, beating, shoving, shouting, intemperate speech and others forms of uncivilized behavior do not seem to be as well controlled. Sadly it reminds me of those who characterized rabbinic Judaism as only able to inculcate the basic rudiments of ethical life as oppose to its highest ideals. Perhaps, attacks on chareidim and the ultra-nationalist RZ movement, are excessive; but their need for a cheshbon hanefesh appears long overdue, as well. I was happy to see that Rabbi Yoel bin Nun, an early leader of the Greater Israel movement, join in an inter-faith meeting near the Gush junction.

    Shades of Gray, The proper translation of the term “toevah” in biblical Hebrew and its use in tanach has been closely examined; the results tend to buttress your point.

  6. LOberstein says:

    I think one reason people like to blame all frum Jews when one of us goes off the path is because our garb and our attitude conveys that we are a coherent group. I recall when I was a day school teacher that non observant teachers were aghast that orthodox youngsters would cheat. The standard answer is “don’t blame Judaism for Jews”. There has to be a better answer as to why we are so different in reality from our stereotype,at times,that is.

    So, let’s go to the next trite answer.”It’s all the rabbis’ fault” “Why don’t the rabbis do this or that.?” All the time, I hear that it is the rabbis’ fault.The school closed because the rabbis didn’t tell the community to support it. Why don’t people say the same thing about Conservative or Reform rabbis? The answer is that nobody thinks that they actually control and run the lives of their members.

    We “chareidi”,frum, orthodox,dati, whatever, people make the startling claim that we run every aspect of our lives by faithfully listening to Gedolim. “Safek =Amalek” we ask and we do, Kshov ve tzaiyeis” Listen and do. We make this outrageous claim as if 105 year old Rav Shteinmann runs our lives on a daily basis and thus ,if someone does something wrong, it must be his fault.

    Let’s admit that our reality is far from our pseudo arrogant claim to be marching in lockstep to the orders of the Gedolim ,which is the way Rabbi Moshe Sherer would have described it. I is simply a fantasy. Charedim only listen when it fits in with their ideas. Rav Shteinmann,shlita is reputed to have permitted a number of things, frum army, frum career courses, etc. but it is all quietly and without much open fanfare. He knows that if he says something “different” he will be “ois godol” and maybe physically attacked. So, let’s stop playing games . The Moetzes hardly ever meets and when it does does not veer from the narrow agenda provided by the askanim. Thus, the whole premise is phony as a three dollar bill.

  7. Bob Miller says:

    The spread of “toevah” practices is enough of a problem to call for a vigorous informational and political response to achieve positive results. Criminal acts that turn advocates of those practices into martyrs are counterproductive in every possible way. To rein in every insane person within our ranks will require closer cooperation with the police, whether we like that or not.

  8. Yaakov Menken says:

    Tzippi, I agree with you. I called this act “evil insanity” and a “terrorist stabbing,” and identified the perpetrator as “deranged” and “mentally ill.” But in a world driven by calumnies of the frum, I could have made it even more clear, and I mean that seriously. Nonetheless, the point must also be made that references to a “culture of hate” in the Charedi community — leading to murder — demonstrate all the honesty and integrity of accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza.

    Dr. Bill, disgusting behavior happens, and when it happens must be addressed in the strongest terms. But people don’t listen — a lot of people listen, but not all.

    I went to college. I went to a sophisticated, elite, Western college. I’ve also been in Lakewood and the Mir, and on the streets of Jerusalem during the worst, most contentious intra-charedi election, when Degel HaTorah and the Agudah ran separately. Charedim burn dumpsters. Meanwhile, the Yad Eliyahu sports stadium has floor-to-ceiling metal fencing to prevent rioting sports fans from killing each other over which team is losing — quite literally fighting over nothing.

    Rabbi Oberstein, I think your analysis of why they think “it’s the Rabbis’ fault” is very perceptive. They think that way because of their notion that we are marching in lockstep, and our Gedolim and Rebbes could stop loons like Schlissel if they wanted to. That’s an extremely good point.

    I always thought, however, that “walking in lockstep” was a canard thrown at us by the non-frum. Rabbi Sherer might have described the Agudath Israel organization following the Moetzes that way, but we, as individuals, are actually much more varied in our Yiddishkeit than those who claim we are automatons following our Rebbeim. Rabbi Sherer was known to be a pragmatic realist, and the idea that we all follow the Gedolim at all times epitomizes “unrealistic.”

    Bob, I agree with you, too. But in this case, the police had to cooperate with the police. Ponder the level of sheer incompetence required to release a guy who looks quite like that, and still looks like that, and still expresses the same hate, and not do anything to keep an eye on his whereabouts that day. Schlissel isn’t a plotter, a planner. I suspect he made no attempt to elude detection when he left his new residence and walked or rode to the parade, and police haven’t said otherwise — because they don’t know.

  9. tzippi says:

    Rabbi Menken, thank you. I was actually about to post a reply that I was a bit unfair: you did preface the article with a heartfelt plea for prayer, which while concise, said it all.

    I know that we need to care for each other more and that that might just be what will bring the geulah. We also need to bring back two timeless aphorisms: Aseh lecha rav, and Chanoch l’naar al pi darko. (Make for yourself a rav [NOT make yourself into your rav], from Pirkei Avos, and educate the child according to his path, from Mishlei.)

  10. Yaakov Menken says:

    Tzippi, I noticed your comment on my way here to post a link about a settler who tried to visit the Arab family who lost a child to arson. The questions raised are significant. As I’ve said, I have insufficient knowledge of what Religious Zionist Rabbis say, but found it difficult to believe that one of their followers could do that either.

    The same things that I said about our community apply similarly to them. “Price tag” attacks don’t often rise to the level of arson where a person might be injured, and they, too, contribute a disproportionately low number of murders to Israeli statistics.

    People should be waiting to let police do their job. This is exactly what happened to Israel, by the way, in the wake of the Mavi Marmara flotilla four years ago — the world rushed to judgement, and still believes Israeli soldiers did something wrong rather than defend themselves. What if Jews had nothing to do with the arson in Duma?

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