So They Don’t Really Want To Stamp Out Torah, After All

You are going to have to read this excerpt from an article by Dov Lipman, even if he is unpopular with much of our readership, especially since he is only quoting Mishpacha. It appears in today’s Times of Israel. Don’t hug the messenger if you don’t want, but don’t shoot him either.

The Haredi newspaper, Mishpacha, sponsored a poll to determine the attitudes of secular Israelis towards Haredim. They hired one of Israel’s top pollsters, Mina Tzemach, to do the research.

Here are some of the results:

1) 72% of secular Israelis believe that the Haredim do not contribute to the Jewish nature of Israel.
2) 67% believe that the IDF is obligated to provide Haredim who serve with all of their religious
needs to make sure that their lifestyle is not impacted negatively by their army service.
3) 82% are willing to hire Haredim to work in their companies.
4) 93% believe that there must be dialogue between the secular and Haredim to preserve unity in Israeli society.
5) 52% feel that Haredim and secular living side by side in the same areas will lead to better
relationships between these populations.
6) 77% know Haredim personally and 83% have a favorable outlook towards the Haredim who
they do know.
7) Among those who live in neighborhoods with Haredim, 77% say that the Haredim do not disturb
their lives in any way.
8) 91% want to make sure that Israel preserves its Jewish identity, 89% believe that Israeli
children must be familiar with Jewish tradition, and 50% feel that the education system is not doing enough to preserve these beliefs.
9) 92% have a mezuzah on their front doors.

Hatred towards Haredim? Want Haredim to be less religious? Despise Torah and mitzvot? One
professional poll has dispelled all these myths about secular Israel and should be a wake-up call to the entire Haredi establishment.

Lest anyone think that this is my assessment as member of Knesset in the Yesh Atid party, I will quote from Rabbi Moshe Grylak, editor of Mishpacha…”

Rabbi Grylak writes: “To admit the truth, we were stunned. If this poll is correct, we have been living all the time with a mistake. We were sure that the average secular Israeli despised us. Not only that, but we in the Haredi media in partnership with the Haredi politicians, spread this feeling and spoke about it over and over, all the time. And behold, this beautiful structure falls apart
.
Behold, it has become clear, that the truth is different: Most and close to all don’t hate. An elite minority, perhaps, hates, but this is not the lot of the majority. The majority has no interest in us at all. They don’t have hatred, they don’t have love, they are simply indifferent. We are a black hole. They pass Bnei Brak and have zero curiosity to enter its streets, our kitchens, our living rooms, or our Torah institutions What does this say to us and about us? Why are we not a source of inspiration? What is flawed about us in that which we are not succeeding to spread to the greater society? We must change approaches and the way we look at one another. We must stop fortifying ourselves behind mistaken walls and change paths. We must feel a sense of ‘shlichut, messengers to Israeli society….simply because this is the Jewish way: To be a model and example.”

I could say, “I hate to say ‘I told you so,'” but it wouldn’t be true. Wouldn’t it be a wonderful Pesach bonus if a few people correctly understood the implications of this poll, as Rabbi Grylak clearly does?

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68 Responses

  1. Doron Beckerman says:

    Sadly, Dov Lipman belongs to the party representing the other 10-15% (12-18 Knesset seats), depending on the national mood.

  2. Ari Heitner says:

    Rabbi Grylak asks, “Why are we not a source of inspiration? What is flawed about us in that which we are not succeeding to spread to the greater society?”

    Does he read the newspaper? Hareidi rabbis and Hareidi politicians being investigated for all sorts of crimes. Hareidi students riotingdemonstrating.

    There are voices calling for an active life of Kiddush Shem Shomayim. I am proud to count my rebbeim among them. I am proud to learn and daven around them on a daily basis.

    But they are being drowned out by the anger, by the fear, by the noise, by the indifference.

  3. Robert says:

    The real question is, why did Haredim think this, that secular Israelis hated them. I think it may be that Haredim are reflecting their own hatred of secular Israelis. Personally, I have never heard a secular Israeli say anything more than, as the poll suggests, indifference but Haredim have often expressed hatred of secular people.

  4. Steve Brizel says:

    Polls like the above are very important, and are indicative of a far greater sense of national unity than one reads in the secular media. However, secular academia, media, and culture in Israel are obviously intent on maintaining the “us versus them” perspective, as was evident in Hebrew U’s reluctance to allow Charedim to attend in separate gender classes. Obviuously bashing an ideological opponent is far easier than showing mutual appreciation.

  5. Jonathan says:

    I just saw a YouTube video showing a secular Israeli journalist interviewing the Kaliver Rebbe. The non-Charedi interviewer listened respectfully as the Rebbe spoke about his pain at seeing so many children in his community go hungry, even during chagim like Pesach. The Rebbe compared the hunger in his community to the hunger he experienced as a boy in Auschwitz. The interviewer told his audience more about the Rebbe’s experience during the Shoah, including the fact that he was experimented on by the evil Dr. Mengele.

    What the interviewer did not ask (at least in the portion that I saw) was why so many able-bodied Chasidic men sit in the beis medrash as their families (including young children) starve. But I’m sure his audience was wondering.

    No, secular, masorti, and dati Israelis do not hate Charedim. But I’m sure they’re getting tired of supporting an increasingly massive kehillah that doesn’t want to support itself.

  6. Surie Ackerman says:

    Seriously, Steve Brizel? It’s the *secular* media and culture intent on maintaining the “us versus them” perspective?

    Once again, Rabbi Grylak could only cite the “Haredi media in partnership with Haredi politicians,” as if either of those entities are independent and don’t answer to higher authorities.

    It’s not secular Jews calling other Jews “Amalek.”

  7. Raymond says:

    I cannot speak for the secular Israelis in this poll, but I can speak for myself. I am thinking that how I feel about the Chareidim is not all that different from how the secular Israelis view the Chareidim. And speaking for myself, while I have at times been critical of some Chareidim, especially on issues such as serving in the Army and/or making a living, such objections really are tangential issues, that do not attack the real core of what the Chareidim are really all about. That is, while I do think they need to assume the same kinds of life responsibilities that any of us mere mortals are expected to carry out, I am certainly not at war with their commitment to following G-d’s Torah, both in their hearts and minds and in their actions.

    I remember some years ago, when a book came out by Prime Minister Netanyahu, called a Place Among the Nations. I have not yet read the book itself, yet I remember feeling uncomfortable about its title. I do not see our Jewish people as being just one of the many hundreds of kinds of people that inhabit this Earth. We are a special nation, like no other. In a kind of twisted way, the antisemites of this world remind us of this, in how they hold us up to impossible standards and are constantly blaming all of the world’s ills on us. What makes us special is not our army, nor our technological or medical innovations, nor even our disproportionate Nobel Prizes, but rather that we have been chosen by G-d to be His representatives on this Earth. We traditional Jews may have our disagreements with one another, but we must never lose sight of this fact of the meaning of our Divine Chosenness.

  8. Natan Slifkin says:

    R. Beckerman, why do you say that Yesh Atid represents the other side? Is there no conceivable reason other than “hatred of charedim” that people would vote for a party that seeks to integrate charedim into the IDF and workforce?

  9. Nachum says:

    “However, secular academia, media, and culture in Israel are obviously intent on maintaining the “us versus them” perspective”

    With all due respect, I think you missed the point here.

    “as was evident in Hebrew U’s reluctance to allow Charedim to attend in separate gender classes.”

    If that’s the worst you can cite…well, we should all have such “problems.” Do you really expect Hebrew University to do this? Why should they? And did this really happen?

    “he experienced as a boy in Auschwitz.”

    This is not productive. Bringing up Nazis never is.

  10. Shunamit says:

    Yes, Robert. This. And then there’s the money, on top of that.

  11. Doron Beckerman says:

    R. Slifkin,

    A lot of people zero in on those issues and assume that that’s what Yesh Atid is all about. But one must look at the broader picture, as MK Chetboun did in explaining why he voted against the draft bill despite his deeply held belief that Charedim must serve, the stinging, public rebuke to his own party this entailed, and the personal consequences he knew he would suffer. For instance, what would the polls come up with regarding the following:

    1) If you were Finance Minister, would you refuse to participate in the sale of chametz, as has been traditionally done by the Fin. Min. since the advent of the State? (see: Yair Lapid)

    2) Do you support a law that allows judges to determine that a non-Jewish family could adopt a Jewish child? (see: Adi Kol and Dov Lipman)

    3) What explanation do you have for the fact that the Fin. Min. has had job campaigns and yet failed to hire even one Charedi – despite their degrees and credentials (as per MK Moses in the Knesset plenum)?

    4) How do you feel about drafting all 18 year-old girls, as appears on Yesh Atid’s platform?

    5) How do you feel about Yair Lapid having presented false deficit numbers (40 million NIS)to justify his cuts to child allowances and Yeshivot?

    6) Why do you feel Yair Lapid has instituted massive budget cuts that have brought *Religious Zionist* Yeshivot to the brink of collapse?

    7) Do you agree with the Chairman of the Child Welfare Committee (Dr. Kadman), who stated that the plan to fund summer camp for Mamlachti schools but not Mukkar She’eino Rishmi (see: Shai Piron) cannot be justified “either legally or ethically,” since a child is a child is a child?

    8) How do you feel about gay marriage?

    9) Do you feel a Finance Minister (a high ranking government official) should post on Facebook on Shabbos?

    10) Are you aware of the number of laws that were characterized by Bayit Yehudi MK Slomiansky as “anti-religious” were blocked by Bayit Yehudi in the previous Knesset session alone? (Answer: 36)

  12. Sammy Finkelman says:

    >> We were sure that the average secular Israeli despised us.

    That could be because some of the status quo was created by that – but all this reflects attitudes some people in he early aliyas held. They also be confusing disassociation with despisal. The Haskalah is in some way alive among the Chareidim.

    >> They don’t have hatred, they don’t have love, they are simply indifferent. We are a black hole. They pass Bnei Brak and have zero curiosity to enter its streets, our kitchens, our living rooms, or our Torah institutions What does this say to us and about us?

    They don’t identify with Chareidim.

    Note the poll said 72% of secular Israelis believe that the Haredim do not contribute to the Jewish nature of Israel. Now that could mean simply that they don’t affect any Jews other than themselves, but it could also mean they don’t Chareidim part of Jewish society.

    >> Why are we not a source of inspiration?

    The usual attitude of Charaidim is to castigate “sinners” – new sins that are periodically discovered and publicized, old sins or possible sins that they demonstrate against, and to reject anyone who drops anything, who does anything opposed even to things not categorically sins – al achas kammah v’cama somebody who was never religious.

    If they don’t castigate them because they don’t expect them to be observant, well, then clearly they also don’t expect anybody to learn anything from them.

    Remember the idea maybe derivative of the haskalah – somebody is either rleigious or he is not, and you can’t combine two things. It’s acontradiction. That was the argument of the contradiction – the Chareidim are maybe descendants of those who chose to be 100% religious, observing anything that anybody might even claim was halachah. (It didn’t matter whether something was really halachah or not because the impetus was sociological, not indepedent opinion.

  13. Mike says:

    Doron Beckerman – it is perfectly possible to support gay marriage without ‘hating Charedim’. Why does not buying into any of the theological axioms you happen to hold dear entail ‘hatred’?

  14. Ben Waxman says:

    Personally, I have never heard a secular Israeli say anything more than, as the poll suggests, indifference but Haredim have often expressed hatred of secular people.

    Oh I have (and stuff from DLs as well)! Once someone was interviewed about Efrat and how he was disappointed that the population didn’t reflect the general makeup of Israel’s population, and he added “there should be more secular people here”. My wife got very upset – why just secular? why not more chareidim?”. This is one small example, but yes, there is prejudice.

  15. Natan Slifkin says:

    R. Beckerman – I can instantly recognize almost all the points you raised as either distortions of what actually happened (the first one being a notable example), and/or having absolutely nothing to do with hatred of Judaism. A secular Jew will not feel bound to traditional Judaism, but it doesn’t mean that he hates it!

  16. Chardal says:

    Doron’s list betrays a common misunderstanding that one often encounters when talking to Orthodox Jews (especially chareidim). The confusion between anti-religious and non-religious. The majority of the laws listed are the natural result of a secular egalitarian/pluralistic worldview. In and of itself, it does not come out of antagonism towards religion as much as the advocation of an independent value system. Not everything that damages the Chareidi world is legislated in order to damage the Chareidi world. Much of said damage could have been avoided by this community if it would simply avoided becoming addicted to the welfare state in the first place. Or funded its own schools (why should I pay for schools whose ideal is to create adults whose lifestyle I will need to continue bankrolling in perpetuity?) the state has an obvious interest in giving economic incentives for parents to switch their kids to alternate systems!

    What upsets the chareidim about yesh atid is the fact that they are using the same tribal identity politics that the chareidim themselves championed for decades, but in the case of yesh atid, in the pursuit of a secular agenda. I agree it is not pretty, but if the Chareidi leadership is looking for someone to blame, they should look in the mirror before they start accusing fellow Jews of bigotry. כל הפוסל במומו פוסל.

  17. Reb Yid says:

    Surie Ackerman wrote:

    Seriously, Steve Brizel? It’s the *secular* media and culture intent on maintaining the “us versus them” perspective?

    It’s not secular Jews calling other Jews “Amalek.”

    Exactly. And they’re not the ones calling non-Jews “goyim”, either. Or spitting at other Jews.

    Most other Jews and media outlets would be quite happy to see fewer differences between Chareidim and other Jews. The Chareidim, however, see things quite differently and part of the strategy to maintain and even sharpen the status quo is by emphasizing and denigrating the “other”.

  18. Ben Waxman says:

    Rav Beckerman

    Looking at your list, there are a couple of items that might be about Chareidi people, but what does allowing gay marriage have to do with “hating Chareidim”? Or posting on Facebook? or number 10?

    Believing in these items has absolutely nothing to do with how one feels about Chareidim.

  19. Nachum says:

    ” What makes us special is not our army, nor our technological or medical innovations, nor even our disproportionate Nobel Prizes, but rather that we have been chosen by G-d to be His representatives on this Earth.”

    Perhaps part of the way we represent God is through the Army, technological and medical innovations (which, of course, save lives) and Nobel Prizes. Certainly we can use these to create a kiddush Hashem is nothing else.

  20. dr. bill says:

    R. Beckerman is wrong mathematically and factually. Mathematically R. Lipman’s party includes a far wider base; only innumeracy would give so small a group so many seats. Factually, in so-called north Tel Aviv, when pizza arrives for those working late, the company is careful to also order pizza from a place that make us all comfortable, myself included. one of the entirely secular citizen’s of north tel aviv offered to spend over 500 Million shekel to increase chareidi presence in high-tech. that is half a billion shekel with a B; an offer that only brought him abuse. given that abuse, the positive results reported are yet more surprising.

    I am sure that secular Israeli’s could make lists of chareidi excess that rivals r. Beckerman’s. statistics now tell us that they are above that. the problem begins to solve itself when those responsible for thought leadership, reach similar conclusions.

  21. cvmay says:

    Chardal
    Israel is a Jewish state, participating in the sell of Chometz by the Finance Minister is an obligation.
    Perhaps a constitution will settle many if not most of these issues. A Jewish state has certain obligations to act and behave as ONE.

  22. reder says:

    If anyone ever claimed that secular Israelis hate Hareidim that is unfortunate. What this study does demonstrate however is how little chashivus is given to the Hareidim and the Torah they study.72% don’t see how Hareidim enhance the Jewish nature of Israel? 72%?!!

  23. Menachem Lipkin says:

    Kudos for posting this Rabbi Adlerstein. Unfortunately, it already seems like people are not understanding the implications of the poll as clearly as Rabbi Grylak. Take Rabbi Beckerman for example. None of the items he lists in response to Rabbi Slifkin indicate “hatred” in any way. Yet, he continues to insist on trotting out that worn out trope. Regardless, if Rabbi Beckerman is going to perform some kind of survey, he would at least, I hope, want to get the underlying assumptions correct. While Chardal and dr. bill did a good job of dealing with Rabbi Beckerman’s list in general I thought it important to address his comments point by point to clarify his many errors. (Full disclosure: I consulted with Rabbi Lipman for help on this.)

    1) If you were Finance Minister, would you refuse to participate in the sale of Chametz, as has been traditionally done by the Fin. Min. since the advent of the State? (see: Yair Lapid)

    Yair Lapid did not sell the Chametz out of respect. He feels it is hypocritical and cheapening to perform an act he does not do himself and does not believe in. Instead he sent someone religious. If he hated or was anti-religion he would not let the event take place at all.

    2) Do you support a law that allows judges to determine that a non-Jewish family could adopt a Jewish child? (see: Adi Kol and Dov Lipman)

    The law was written to enable Jewish women who cannot have children to adopt a child. There are less Jewish children in need of a home in Israel than there are Jewish mothers who cannot have children. This law allows them to be mothers by adopting non Jewish children without requiring the mother to be religious and demanding a conversion for the child. While what Rabbi Beckerman asserts is technically possible it’s highly unlikely in practice.

    3) What explanation do you have for the fact that the Fin. Min. has had job campaigns and yet failed to hire even one Charedi – despite their degrees and credentials (as per MK Moses in the Knesset plenum)?

    The finance minister does very little hiring himself so this point means nothing. He did allocate hundreds of millions of shekels to pay for job training for Chareidim and has been calling on secular companies to hire them. (Check out the new the “Chareidi” portal of the very popular “alljobs” website which was developed in conjunction with Yesh Atid. Not only does it list jobs that cater to the needs of Chareidim, the ads on that section of the site are also “appropriate” for Chareidim.)

    4) How do you feel about drafting all 18 year-old girls, as appears on Yesh Atid’s platform?

    Yesh Atid is not making this an issue for the religious population. They worked with sensitivity to the draft law which demands nothing in terms of service from Chareidi girls.

    5) How do you feel about Yair Lapid having presented false deficit numbers (40 million NIS)to justify his cuts to child allowances and Yeshivot?

    He did not present false numbers. Corporate tax revenue was higher than usual so the debt projection was off.

    6) Why do you feel Yair Lapid has instituted massive budget cuts that have brought *Religious Zionist* Yeshivot to the brink of collapse?

    Yair Lapid does not believe the government should be paying so much for something which does not kick back into the economy. Having said that, after the cuts, the government is still sending 480 million shekel to yeshivas. This also goes to the point Chardal made, there are, necessary, cuts all over the place. Special interest groups tend focus disproportionately on their own needs, sometimes blinding them to the needs of the overall society.

    7) Do you agree with the Chairman of the Child Welfare Committee (Dr. Kadman), who stated that the plan to fund summer camp for Mamlachti schools but not Mukkar She’eino Rishmi (see: Shai Piron) cannot be justified “either legally or ethically,” since a child is a child is a child?

    C’mon, this is an old story. If they decide to their own things in their schools they can’t then come and say but we want the benefits of government schools as well. If they want the benefits then they have to fall in line with government regulations.

    8) How do you feel about gay marriage?

    This is a non-sequitur. The bill that Yesh Atid presented is for civil union not “gay marriage”. The carefully worded language of the bill, which specifically does not call these unions “marriage”, was arrived at with input from the religious members of the party.

    9) Do you feel a Finance Minister (a high ranking government official) should post on Facebook on Shabbos?

    What on earth does this have to do with Hatred of Chareidim? Do you really want to get into a tit-for-tat regarding “proper” halachic behavior of political officials; including Chareidi politicians? Besides what he does on Facebook page is his business and he has never given any illusion that he’s Shomer Shabbos.

    10) Are you aware of the number of laws that were characterized by Bayit Yehudi MK Slomiansky as “anti-religious” were blocked by Bayit Yehudi in the previous Knesset session alone? (Answer: 36)

    Bayit Yehudi did not block any laws. They are trying to stop one because they are bound to some extremist rabbis. Having said that, can you really point to anyone in Bayit Yehudi who knows the finance minister who would say that Yair Lapid hates religion or the religious?

    ——

    After much personal deliberation I voted for Yesh Atid last year. Overall, I have to say that I’m very impressed with the party, their accomplishments, and any of their MKs that I’ve learned about. Most of them were not professional politicians and in the true spirit of what the US congress was originally supposed to be, they took off time from important careers to try and help improve their country. One certainly does not have to agree with their platform or the bills they’ve presented and/or passed to at least acknowledge that they are, by and large, fine, decent people who do not “hate”.

  24. Yehoshua Friedman says:

    Chardal,
    The dependence on the welfare state is the problem of all sectors in Israel, but the hareidim are most vulnerable because they are not earning the money that would enable them to say, we’ll pay for our own schools and services and they’ll be the envy of the secular public for quality. If occasionally they do something like that, they do it by raising money in America, and that gravy train is rapidly running out. In a few more years the standard of living in Israel will be better than in America, but the hareidi public won’t be able to take advantage of it if they are not an economic force.

  25. Zave says:

    I am trying to figure out why Dov Lipman is the focus of this article. I would think that Mishpacha and Rav Grylak are the ones who are actually talking from within the Chareidi community and holding up a mirror and from within the community to effect a change in a positive way. If the goal is to get the message within the Charedi community, Mishpacha is much more of a voice than the Times of Israel website. Just wondering?

  26. rbs anglo says:

    I would like to expand on Chardals spot on post.Often overlooked as a culprit in the terrible strife in Israel is the destructive social welfare system Which discourages all self reliance.How tragicly ironic that this system instituted by the atheiest founders of the state with the worst of intentions( ie.being able to control the masses)is now defended tooth and nail by the chariedim.Also R Beckerman you terribly undermine your arguably valid points when you include utter silliness like lapid face booking on shabbos .

  27. Adi says:

    What fascinates – and, simultaneously depresses – me is that when I searched for this news item in Hebrew, the headlines returned, in both secular and charedi news sources, were inflammatory. Specifically, much focus was given to “secular israelis do not believe charedim contribute to jewish identity”. It took two paragraphs for one article to get to the more positive results, and these were phrased as dismissively as possible.

  28. jbs says:

    Doron Beckerman,
    Yair Lapid has always said that he is completely secular and proud of it but that doesn’t mean he hates Chareidim. The Yesh Atid position is that religion should not dictate public policy just like in the United States. The 10 examples you gave all place religion within public policy decisions. While it is debatable whether this is a good idea based on your position on this topic, it does not indicate a hatred for Chareidim or even a hatred of religion.

  29. Doron Beckerman says:

    I did not say that my points are meant to prove that Yesh Atid hates Charedim or hates religion. The point is this: The poll presents a welcoming attitude toward employing Charedim – the Finance Ministry does not. The poll presents a general wish to gravitate toward tradition and preserve the State’s Jewish identity – Yesh Atid does not. And so on. I used to live near the center of Yerushalayim as a teen, and I recall seeing Yitzhak Shamir walking serious distances on Shabbos to avoid public desecration thereof. Posting public policies on Facebook on Shabbos is disrespectful of the Jewish nature of the State (not to mention Yesh Atid’s religious constituents) and refusing to sell the country’s chametz is too. If you don’t believe in it, don’t take the job of Finance Minister of the Jewish State.

    In terms of motives, I can’t divine them. And for the most part, it doesn’t matter. Decent people might seek to ban Shechitah or Millah as inhumane practices, but these would be, by definition, anti-religious laws, irrespective of motive. What is quite clear from both the Charedi and secular media outlets is that, at this point, the one thing that can get Yesh Atid out of its rut is if the Charedim really cry out in pain and attack him over the relentless and merciless anti-Charedi financial policies, which were aptly termed by one the writers here (not me) as a “diabolical pincer move.”

    Preservation of the values of the Religious Zionist community is very deeply mortgaged to government funds, probably more so than the Charedim, and in terms of actual cash numbers overwhelmingly so. The Charedi Yeshivos have massive fundraising networks of which the RZ Yeshivot can only dream. And any future government that does not include Bayit Yehudi will almost surely see the financial asphyxiation of both those Yeshivot and Kollelim (and I know very well the impossible conditions in which Religious Zionist Avreichim live) and the settlements.

    The Yesh Atid voters in the previous election were certainly of a broader base than those who are on the “wrong” side of this poll; they hoped Lapid would help the middle-class. They were wrong. Yesh Atid is currently down to 10-12 seats in every poll, rising on occasion when there is a really good sock-it to the Charedim. Yair Lapid considered it a “victory photograph” to show up in the President’s Mansion without the Charedim; he rebuffed Speaker Edelstein’s pleas to not cut the child welfare because “this was his degel.” With the deficit not as bad as thought, he’s rolling in enough money to give out 0% VAT apartments – but not to those who didn’t serve in the IDF (including the much-vaunted 1,800 learners). There’s enough money to fund summer camp, but not for government-recognized school systems that are not Mamlachti. (Has the government proved itself so very competent at education? Some might differ with such an assessment.) He knows well what side his bread his buttered on.

    Rav Soloveichik in Chamesh Derashot laid out clear guidelines as to where participation in the government with the secular begins and ends. In his famed “And Joseph Dreamt a Dream” lecture, he discusses Avraham traveling along with Yishmael and Eliezer, but at a certain point, he tells them to remain behind with the donkey, while he ascends Har Hamoriah to prostrate before Hashem. RYBS expounds that while Avraham needed his attendants to make his way toward the mountain, this was no bond of fraternity. At a certain point, it became necessary to cut the cord and continue on alone.

    “Do you think it is easy to do so, to say this to friends with whom one has wandered for three days and three nights… Do you think it natural to tell the two youths, that besides politico-economic and military interests, Avraham and Yitzchak have other aspirations, other plans, and other promises, which they, the youths, will not understand? It is easy to assess that the youths were insulted, accusing Avraham and Yitzchak of divisiveness, arrogance, politics, etc.” (Similarly,) Does this mean that we continue on with anyone to Har Hamoriah? That we are willing to allow the two youths to desecrate the sanctity of Har Hamoriah and bow to all the idols? No! When the matter concerns Har Hamoriah, laws of marriage, education, Shabbat observance, forbidden foods, the Rabbinate, and halachic authority, “Who is a Jew,” we unabashedly announce to the two youths, be it whomever it may be in the coalition with us — sit here with the donkey, and I and the youth will arrive at our destination, and we will prostrate.”

  30. lacosta says:

    >>>>I have never heard a secular Israeli say anything more than, as the poll suggests, indifference but Haredim have often expressed hatred of secular people

    —– but this makes logical sense.

    hilonim/zionists only want assurance no one will change their way of life or try to convert them or their children. [ but that violates major tenets of hareidi judaism]

    haredim are zealous against anyone/anything that profanes G-d, His tora, or His Own Representatives on earth [ ie only those faithful to every dot and tittle as espoused by Moronan vRabonan, their gedolim leadership who have exclusive say on what G-d wants, to the exclusion of all other jews , regardless of how ‘religious’ they appear to be].
    perforce coming from this mindset, how can you NOT hate hilonim, zionists, reformers etc?

    the problem/implication this polling would seem to indicate , is that a lot of the problem is not only on the hiloni side….

  31. Joel says:

    R’ Beckerman, why is it so hard to understand that it is the finance ministery that is the driving force behind much of the positive approach to getting industry to include Charedim in the workplace? As a chutznik who lives in the Charedi world I am disturbed by the verbal and written gymnastics used to to vilify anyone who doesn’t accept the ‘status Quo’

    Interesting to note that those who actually hate the Charedim typically belong to the Meretz party and Labors left wing, funnily enough these are the new found friends of the Charedi parties. I think you will find those 10% who hate the charedim for their religious beliefs are now your bedfellows.

    Now that we know through independent polling that the Charedi community have got it wrong for the past 20years, what are the next steps? what are our leaders going to do/say based on the new information at hand? Armed with the Emes, what is the new Daas Torah going to be? surely it can’t be more of the same?

  32. mb says:

    Josh gave me permission to post this here. It is a response to a similar posting on
    Rabbi Maryles blog, Emes Ve-Emunah.

    “Forgive me, RHM, but I will try again. You may remember me. Rav Moshe Grylak brings up bad memories for me. I served in the IDF some twenty years ago. During that time, we encountered a terrorist attack, and the best friend I ever had was killed. Since then I have suffered from PTSD and depression (that didn’t stop me from finishing medical school and an anesthesiology residency in Israel, but eventually I was fired from my job for warning my superiors of life-endangering behavior on the part of my colleagues. Since then I have been taking temporary jobs, because my name has been besmirched by the anesthesiology community in Israel). For the past two decades, my life has not been the same.
    I visit my friend in the Har Herzl cemetary twice a year, on the day comemorating Israel’s fallen, and on my friend’s yahrtzeit.
    A few weeks ago, Rav Grylak praised the Mashgiach who said that if his Yeshiva students can stand by the graves in Har Herzl and feel that their sacrifice equals the sacrifice of those buried there, of their broken parents, (and maybe even my continuous sufferring), then they can feel comfortable about going to the “million man” demonstration and cursing my holy friend HY”D, his wonderful parents who are true Yerei Shamayim, and maybe even me, the son of a survivor of the ghetto in Przemysl, Galicia. I once mentioned, as a son of a Holocaust survivor, what “Shfoich Chamuschu El Hagoyim Asher Loi Yedueechu” means to me.
    When you wrote words of praise for Rav Grylak and the Mashgiach for their words, I was overcome with grief and anger. And I made it clear. You were upset with my criticism, and I quickly apologized. I was shocked that you did not understand my pain, so I pleaded that everything I wrote be erased, and you graciously did so though you preferred that others read about my ordeal.
    Now that you mention Harav Grylak again, the memories come flooding back, so I wish to explain where I’m coming from again.
    Peace will come again between the charedim and those who are not, I fervently hope. But if some will read my story and achieve some understanding of what my pain is all about, “VeHaya Zeh Sechari”.

    (P.S. I used to be “djb”, but I removed that name from disqus, as I no longer wish to be anonymous. Especially since I carry the name of my holy great uncle, HY”D, who was shot into a pit in Brzozow, Galicia, on 27 Av 5702. And, I have nothing left to fear.)

    A Gitten Moied.

  33. Chardal says:

    You are misreading the poll. It shows three things that the coexistence of which only seems like a paradox to the chaeidi world view:

    1) people in Israel have moved to a more “live and let live” mentality. On an individual level, chareidim are fine upstanding people that deserve the same respect and opportunities as any other citizen.

    2) people in Israel have not abandoned tier basic sense if fairness. They think it is plain wrong for chareidim to have a blanket exemption from national service (no one except for chareidim sees enrollment in yeshiva to be form of national service). They think it is plain wrong for a subgroup to organize in such a way as to take more than it gives to the national economy and at the same time expect equal funding for schools whose ideal is to perpetuate the inequality (and yes, government run schools, while there is plenty to criticize, do a vastly better job than Chareidi schools in creating contributing members of society)

    3) Israelis are spending more time thinking about and acting upon their Jewish identity. This is being done without the involvement of of either the Chareidi or the RZ communities. “Secular” yeshivas are one example of this phenomenon. Greater observance of Jewish traditions is a more widespread one.

    All these three things are reflective of most yesh atid voters and, for that matter, are probably good descriptions of Lapid himself.

    I think that the first step chareidim need to take in order to be able to comprehend these results is to let go of the 65 year old concept they had of the chiloni society as an עגלה ריקה. It was not so then and it is not so now. It has an ideology and needs to be respected and understood, not vilified. And in giving some respect, you may find that respect is also returned.

  34. Andrew says:

    R’ Beckerman,

    Rav Soloveitchik’s mashal might be effective for arguing that bayit Hayehudi shouldn’t defer to yesh atid on religious matters, but it doesn’t do anything to support the position of the charedi parties.

    Avraham Avinu didn’t dedicate himself to fulltime Torah learning while demanding that eliezer and yishmael support his physical needs. Instead, he collaborated with eliezer and yishmael on practical manners, while demanding autonomy on religious matters.

    If all three religious parties in Israel today represented constituencies that contributed economically and militarily to Israel, then more secular Israelis might be able to agree to the religious demands.

  35. mb says:

    Ooops I left off his name.
    Josh Rubenfeld

  36. Barry Jacobson says:

    One didn’t really need this poll to know that the average Israeli doesn’t hate Chareidim or Yiddishkeit to begin with. As I wrote in a piece titled “Mesorah of Chesed”, in the 1960’s the entire Knesset took upon themselves to declare a day of honor with an official state ceremony to thank Reb Aryeh Levin ZTL for all he had done. Reb Aryeh looked and dressed entirely Chareidi, but the nation sensed his unbounded love for them, and repaid it in kind.

    In addition, look at how many streets are named for recent Rabbanim, Rishonim, Tannaim and Neviim. Most Jews are fiercely proud of their heritage, and cherish the Kotel, etc.

    There is an online video of Netanyahu who invited two Chareidi melamdim and their classes of handicapped children to his office, where the children each read their Bar and Bas Mitzva speeches, and Netanyahu gave each child a present and a hug.

    Netanyahu personally called little Moishie, the son of the martyred Rivki and Gavi Holtzberg, shluchim of Mumbai, as he was about to start first day of elementary school. Indeed, the state offered to fly all the victims for burial to Israel at its own expense, and make a state funeral.

    I also seem to recall a poll saying that the vast majority of the country fasts on Yom Kippur, and makes a seder on Pesach.

    The signs were all around. I could not fathom why it was necessary to make up and live by this unnecessary and fictitious war story for so many years, which did incalculable damage to the cause of Torah.

  37. Harry Maryles says:

    I find it quite telling that Rabbi Adlerstein posts some positive news about the attitude of secular Jews in Israel to Charedim and the majority of comments are in response to an incredible lack of intolerance by R’ Doron. Is it any wonder that there are such divisions in Israel?

    I know that R’ Doron’s comments indicate an acceptance of these statistics. But why must he use this post to yet again bash Rabbi Lipman and his party leader, Finance Minster Yair Lapid?

    The issues he has with Finance Minister Lapid may be real. But it is certainly not the entire picture. For every perceived ill he cited about Lapid, one can find an equal number of positive things he has done for the community. Rabbi Lipman enumerated some of them in an interview recently.

    Why is everything either black or white for you, R’ Doron? Is there no color in your life? Is this what it takes to be a Charedi in Israel? …to live in a world where there is no color?

  38. dr. bill says:

    The Rav ztl strongly differentiated halakhic man from religious man. His brilliant Derashot were more time bound and situational than even his halakhic views that obviously had, like all halakhot, a circumstantial element. I often wonder whether his differentiation of halakhic versus religious, is identical/similar/related to that of Prof. Katz zl. In any case, quoting the Rav’s derashot presumes far deeper knowledge than his best talmidim can assert with certainty.

  39. Yaakov Menken says:

    Harry, you and I must have read a different set of comments, because what I see is a series of comments that, one after the other, claim that charedim are the ones responsible for the divisiveness and discord in Israel. In other words, one after the next attacks the charedim. Rabbi Beckerman produces a voice of reason that argues, quite cogently, that the reason charedim feel under attack is because of government policies that attack them. It is not he who is guilty of the incredible lack of tolerance here.

    Ari Heitner: “Hareidi rabbis and Hareidi politicians being investigated for all sorts of crimes.” Of course, Hareidim contribute less than their share to every crime in Israel, which is most visible in crimes of violence. For decades Bnei Brak didn’t need a police station. But you wouldn’t know this from reading the media. Who is to blame for that? The Hareidim, for not being perfect, for having people even worthy of “being investigated.”

    Robert: “Personally, I have never heard a secular Israeli say anything more than, as the poll suggests, indifference but Haredim have often expressed hatred of secular people.” Robert has impressively selective hearing. Last year an IDF officer said on an open mic that the chareidim should “all die” and was promoted. From the earliest days of the state, when children had their payos cut off and were offered delicacies on Y”K, there has been a strong secular Zionist contingent anxious to stamp out traditional Judaism. The survey shows that the chareidim are doing better than they thought at reversing this, but 72% still see the chareidim as irrelevant to the Jewish nature of Israel.

    Jonathan, too, fails to reflect upon the full picture when he describes charedim as “an increasingly massive kehillah that doesn’t want to support itself.” The fact is that no one has really done a financial analysis to prove this. The government pours billions into sports stadiums, arts centers and other facilities of no use to the charedi population, not to mention Universities where they are unwelcome. The Charedi institutions total perhaps 1% of Israel’s budget — yes, 1% — and even before the draconian cuts, a student of Romance Languages and Literature in the Jewish state received twelve times the funding of a student of traditional Jewish literature. Is this dealing with a real financial problem, or finding a scapegoat?

    Chareidim pay VAT, buy apartments, and bring in tens of thousands of young men and women from chutz l’Aretz every year, where each and every one contributes roughly $25,000 per annum to the Israeli economy — a total of at least a half a billion dollars per year. The United States, by comparison, gives Israel roughly $800 million each year not reserved for purchase of US military equipment. Were the Chareidim a government, they would be Israel’s second-largest source of foreign aid. And all of the above includes even those charedim who officially don’t support the state and take no money at all from it. It is not at all clear the Chareidim are a net loss, it’s just convenient to say so.

    Surie Ackerman (and, of course, Reb Yid): “It’s not secular Jews calling other Jews ‘Amalek.'” True. The secular Jews are the ones calling them parasites, giant lice, and hoping they will all die. They are also the ones who forcibly secularized religious children (and adults), yet accuse the Orthodox of religious coercion. The secular Jews are the ones who campaign on openly anti-charedi platforms, with even Naftali Bennet saying that every non-charedi has to vote against the charedi candidate. I still vividly remember the campaign advertisements in Jerusalem for those whose official party platform was to halt the increase in Orthodox settlement in the Holy City. Yet an official platform of anti-Orthodox bigotry and laws that single out Torah scholars don’t bother them, only strongly-worded responses.

    And Nachum, I guess you don’t remember the cartoon that depicted two Chassidim leaving Yad VaShem, with one saying to the other “but were they Jewish enough?” Never mind that the Chassidim were, per capita, the most likely to be victims of the Nazis, a Jewish cartoonist in Israel (I forget in which paper this appeared) did not hesitate to depict Chassidim as unconcerned about Holocaust martyrs.

    As I said, Rabbi Beckerman seems to be the lone voice of reason, not anxious to heap one-sided blame upon the Charedi community for the sad state of affairs quite deliberately initiated by the secular Zionists (look up Jacob Israël de Haan some time — the Ba’al Teshuvah murdered by the Haganah for representing Chareidi political interests a little too well).

    The survey indicates that there has been more positive progress than Chareidim might think. As “Zave” said, Dov Lipman using this Mishpacha survey in Times of Israel is self-serving, and not intended to produce the positive self-reflection that Rabbi Grylak did in Mishpacha.

    Think about this: 77% of those who live in mixed neighborhoods “say that the Haredim do not disturb their lives in any way,” and 83% have a favorable impression of the Chareidim they know. Yet fully 48% did not agree that “Haredim and secular living side by side in the same areas will lead to better relationships between these populations.” I believe this can be explained as indicating that the secular population is at least as encumbered by old biases still encouraged and reinforced by a hostile media, and since almost 1 in 4 don’t even know a Charedi Jew, all they get is a negative impression of what co-existence in the same community might entail. But I’m sure others will offer different theories as to why the Charedim are themselves solely to blame for the fact that those who don’t know them are vastly less likely to want to know them, than those who already do.

  40. Harry Maryles says:

    You’re right Yaakov. In my zeal to respond I read the comments too quickly. They are in fact the way you described them. But that does not take away from my response to Doron, who I happen to be quite friendly with – having met him during my many trips to his community of RBS B (where my son and his family lives).

    I apologize if I offended him. But I do not apologize for my comment. In my very considered opinion – his voice is not the voice of reason in this instance. His views do not reflect the views of the entire Frum world. They reflect only the views of the right wing. The DL community feels pretty much the way I do. I know the right in that community quite well. They see things in exactly the same black and white way he does… and as you obviously do.

    Doron chose to see the glass half empty. Dov Lipman sees it as half full the way most DL’s (and even a few Charedim in RBS B like Rafi of the Life in Israel blog) do. The Frum Community in RBS B is divided on this issue. That’s why the election of Abutbol was so close. DL’s are at least 40% of the population there.

    Don’t you think it would be more productive to be positive rather than negative… as the co-founder of this blog, RYA, seems to feel? If Doron’s animosity to Dov Lipman and outright vilification of Yair Lapid continues to rule your heart and the hearts of others on the right, then what hope is there for a re-conciliation and living together in peace? Why not follow Rabbi Grylak’s lead?

  41. Doron Beckerman says:

    I would like to respond to Menachem’s comments. It should be clear that nothing I write should be taken personally G-d forbid. This is about ideologies, not people.

    Point 1 – As I said above, he isn’t a private citizen – he is the Finance Minister of the Jewish State and if he can’t carry out his duties because he doesn’t believe in them, he shouldn’t take the job.

    Point 2 – Let’s understand what is going on here. Until now, the law was firm: No adoption if the child is not of the same faith. This created a problem for Jewish non-Orthodox couples who wished to adopt non-Jews, because they could not do so without intent to have the child undergo geirus with basis Shemiras Mitzvos. So to correct this issue, the law is now changed such that a judge can decide that a couple of one faith may adopt that of another. A Jew adopting a non-Jewish child who is not clearly made aware that he is not Jewish can create serious problems and is forbidden anyhow. But the reverse case, even if unlikely, cannot be tolerated. Even one instance of such an occurrence is, by Jewish law, worse than murdering the child. Finally, I would like to know which major rabbinic authorities were consulted prior to voting for such a law. By major authorities, I mean those to whom one would turn for a serious Agunah or mamzeirus question. Alternatively, one might wish to turn to the Chief Rabbinate, which vehemently opposes this bill. You don’t like the current Chief Rabbis? I don’t like the current government either.

    Point 3 – That’s like saying that it means nothing if the CEO of a company encourages others to hire blacks, but his own hiring division is free to hire only whites without censure. Actions speak much louder than words and websites.

    Point 4 – The question was not answered. Why does this appear on Yesh Atid’s platform?

    כל אזרח או אזרחית אשר הגיעו לגיל 18 יופנו למאגר השירות אשר יפנה אותם למסלול שירות צבאי או אזרחי. לצה”ל תינתן עדיפות במיון, והוא יוכל לגייס כל צעיר או צעירה אשר יימצאו מתאימים לצרכיו. יחד עם זאת יינתן משקל לשאלה מאיזה רקע בא המועמד לשירות בטחון והאם שירותו מחייב את הצבא להיערכות מיוחדת. –

    Why is it that when the current Chief Rabbis reiterated the Rabbinate’s age-old ruling, which states that girls may not be drafted into the IDF, Yair Lapid wrote on his Facebook page:

    “זוהי חוצפה ושערורייה לאומית, ואנחנו נפעל לפיטוריהם בכנסת ובממשלה ואם צריך גם במישור המשפטי”, כתב לפיד, “דוד לאו ויצחק יוסף אינם ראויים עוד לכהן בישראל כרבנים ראשיים”.

    Point 5 – This was indeed an error of mine – I confused the actual deficit and the projected one (as Yair Lapid did in stating that the State had to cover the 2012 deficit – which wasn’t true; that was covered by bonds – he had to cover the projected deficit). But the point of the question was really this: Yair Lapid famously asked during his campaign “Where is the money?” while pointing a finger at the Charedim. In his speech in the early days of the summer session, he said, in so many words, that the Charedim own the deficit. In truth, the Charedim, including the total child allowance and Torah institutions, made up about 1% of the total budget. Why the scapegoat tactics? Once the projected deficit was lower than expected, why not reverse some of the child allowance cuts?

    Point 6 – I would recommend comparing the money given to Yeshivos versus that given to students of academic fields that kick back nothing to the economy. See here:

    http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/272368

    and here:

    http://kalkala-amitit.blogspot.co.il/2013/02/10_11.html

    The government funds these students at 4-12 times the rate of Yeshiva boys and Kollel. The total annual expenditure on these students exceeds 2 billion NIS.

    Also, for every Kollel fellow receiving X shekels from the government, there is a Rosh Kollel or organization head going abroad and raising some factor of X and funnelling it back into the economy. There is no comparable mechanism for these students.

    Point 7 – Why is eligibility for summer camp funding linked to which school the kid goes to in the first place?

    Point 8 – With which major rabbinic authority (as defined above) did these religious members consult when accepting this distinction between “marriage” and “civil unions” and legalizing the latter in Eretz Yisrael? Is this not an issue deserving of attention and determination by the highest halachic echelons or, alternatively, by the Chief Rabbinate, which opposes it vehemently?

    Point 9 – unaddressed. As I said, I think it disrespectful of the Jewish character of the State to Facebook public policy issues on Shabbos.

    Point 10 – MK Slomiansky said here that they blocked 36:

    http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/273169

    It is actually quite surprising to me that MK Lipman considers the Rabbis to whom Bayit Yehudi is *bound* (I think the closest person to that definition is Rav Druckman – not all Rabbis wearing knitted kippot who express their views) to be “extremists.” I refer again to the citation from Chamesh Derashot above.

    I think Chardal is doing a whole lot of reading his own outlook into the poll. As far as the empty wagon, I’m willing to explore what that means, but at the outset I have to make clear that anything that is not in consonance with the Ikkarei Emunah and belief in the binding nature of Maamad Har Sinai and the Torah Sheb’al Peh is an empty wagon. Any overall ideology that does not identify with every word of Aleinu Leshabeiach and Al Kein Nekaveh Lechah – that there is nothing but Him; that we are all Hashem’s slaves forever and we kneel and prostrate before Him and fulfill every last bidding of his (I hope all readers and their children came away at least with that from their Seder night!); and that our most fervent wish is that every person on earth should recognize this – is an empty wagon. The people who maintain ideologies foreign to this may be wonderful, but the ideology itself is empty, if perhaps having some ideas worthy of consideration.

    Ultimately, the seculars are streaming by the thousands – per month – to various religious education frameworks. Uri Zohar in an interview just before Pesach:
    הרב זוהר: “הורים באים אלינו כשהם מתארים מצב שאינם יכולים לשאת, סגנון הדיבור של הילדים בבית והתנהגותם. הם פונים בהמוניהם ומתחננים. הם פונים, אפילו לא צריך להגיע אליהם. את הדברים האלו לא מפרסמים. מדובר באלפים כן ירבו. אנו רושמים ב’לב לאחים’ כארבעת אלפים – חמשת אלפים ילדים בשנה לבתי ספר תורניים, ללא שום פעילות מיוחדת. רגליהם מוליכות אותם אלינו”
    ” אינני יודע אם יודעים על כך, אבל בשנה הבאה יהיו יותר ממחצית מילדי ישראל במדינה, במסגרות דתיות. אמנם לא כולם במסגרות חרדיות. אבל דתיות. אנשים פשוט בורחים מן החושך אל האור. ‘יתרון האור מן החושך'”!
    הרב זוהר מוסיף בהדגשה: “כל רכז של ‘לב לאחים’, יכול לספר ולהעיד על אלפי הענויות לחודש של מצטרפים ללמוד תורה עם אברכים. ‘לב לאחים’ פועל במאה ריכוזים ברחבי הארץ. ישנם מקומות ציבוריים שנמצאים בהם אברכים שיוצרים קשר עם יהודים רחוקים ומחברים אותם ללמוד תורה עם חברותא. הם נמצאים בכותל, בקבר רחל, רואים יהודים רחוקים, פונים אליהם ומציעים. התוצאה מיידית. תוך עשרים וארבע שעות מהסכמתו של היהודי, זה מתחיל, מתחילים ללמוד. נוצר קשר של תורה. אם בשעור במקום מגורים, אם בטלפון, אם צריך, אברך מגיע ללמוד.

    Ultimately, nothing in the poll surprised me. It is indeed appropriate for Rabbi Grylak and others of the Charedi media and askunyah to klap al cheit and stop making believe that the seculars hate them or seek their destruction. For the most part, they don’t. But you have that percentage of the elite populace, egged on and supported by a hostile secular media, that shift around every election to the latest trendy Centrist party that inevitably has it in for the Charedim, be it Dash, Shinui, Kadimah at the time, and Yesh Atid. Chardal is right that these people are the contra to too much of the Charedi public face and attitudes. But, despite it all, the rank and file Charedi is very well-regarded.

    Harry, please reread Rabbi Adlerstein’s opening line in the post. The implication was that Dov Lipman and his party represent the mindset expressed in the poll. I don’t think so. (I also think you’ve seen enough of my writing to know very well that I don’t necessarily see things in black and white. On the other hand, thinking that all those who identify as Charedim must see things in black and white…)

    Moadim Lesimchah to everyone- this will be it for me on this thread.

  42. Benshaul says:

    Thank you Yaakov Menken for giving some facts and figures to the discussion. It is hard to read the comments and not feel like you have fallen into a rabbit hole -ala’ Alice in Wonderland. When I was learning in Yeshiva in Israel, my mother came for a wedding. For shtick, I let my peyos grow and didn’t shave for a month before she arrived. I then borrowed the yerushalmi levush from a friend and arrived at the airport “dressed up” and convinced my mother that I had “gone black”. At the time I remember commenting to a number of people that when I walked down the street in the levush, as opposed to my usual American colored shirt look, I could feel the almost palpable sense of derision and scorn directed towards me.
    Nonetheless an apocryphal story isn’t about the facts, even about myself.

    Perhaps we can posit that we are not really arguing. In my 4 years of study in Israel, I also always had the sense that the “amcha” of Israel was nowhere near as full of hate and venom, as the media made it out to be. But I don’t mean the charedi media, I mean the left wing media and the intelligentsia. I believe a case can be made for parsing the media and the way it portrays and vilifies the charedi and DL/RZ world vs. the traditional or at least benign feelings the average Israeli has towards charedim chardalim etc.
    The problem is that we are all influenced by what we read, and when the majority of the secular media evinces disdain and worse towards charedim, it eventually filters down, and we make a good punching bag for populists.

    Additionally the charedi youth are raised on the stories of mesiras nefesh of those who braved the settlement camps when they were cutting peyos off the Yemenite children (factually known to have occurred plus much worse)and other incidents of true hatred of Torah and Religion that were done by agents of the State of Israel. So there is a history here that gives them the basis to be nervous. Denying that this occurred or wasn’t part of the modus vivendi of the State, will only lessen credibility in their eyes and not allow us to have a frank and honest discussion.

  43. Jonathan says:

    Rabbi Menken,

    There have actually been plenty of financial analyses that show that the charedi community is not pulling its weight economically. Dan Ben-David of the Taub Center for Social Policy Studies in Israel has found, for example, that 65% of Israeli charedi men don’t have jobs, which is a big part of why Israeli men as a whole have one of the lowest labor participation rates in the industrialized world. Between 1980 and 2010, charedi men’s participation rate in the Israeli workforce actually declined, despite the constant promises by charedi apologists that charedi men are slowly entering the workforce. And the charedi community’s welfare dependence is a big part of why Israel spent five times as much on welfare (in inflation adjusted terms) in 2010 as in 1980, while the overall standard of living only doubled.

    You may be right that payments to charedim consumes less of the Israeli budget than some imagine (although overall government support for charedim greatly exceeds the 1% of the budget spent on yeshivot; that figure completely excludes child payments and welfare) but that does not contradict my assertion: most Israeli charedi men are consciously choosing not to meet their halachic, moral, and civic obligation to earn a parnassah for their families. This non-participation in the workforce is the root cause of the strife between charedim and the non-charedim. A large and growing population is simply not earning enough to pay for its basic economic needs. This means that the rest of the Israeli population (and foreign Jews) are forced to choose between letting charedi children go hungry, or subsidizing a growing community that raises its sons not to also have jobs. Neither prospect is appealing.

    As far as your allegation that secular employers discriminate against charedim: I’m sure this is true, somewhat. There is genuine prejudice, and there also secular employers who may be unwilling or unable to meet charedi employees’ unique needs. But doesn’t this prejudice go both ways? Is it really impossible that a charedi employer might discriminate against a secular employee, or be unwilling to permit the secular employee’s lifestyle (dress, diet, etc.) in the workplace. If charedi men entered the workforce en masse (either by choice, or as a result of government policies) then they would start their own companies, and charedi employees would not have to depend on the tolerance of secular employers in order to earn parnassa for their wives and children.

  44. martin brody says:

    Alas those that lie, are generally suspicious that they are lied to, same with thieves, cheats etc, as it is with those that hate. And that’s a problem with Cheredim. For 200 years they have been told they are hated by those less Ultra Orthodox than them, and therefore they hate in return. That’s what’s so positive about this poll.
    Honest, caring people, are not obsessed what others are doing to them, and live happier more fulfilled lives.Indeed, they have a mindset all others are similar to them

  45. Steve Brizel says:

    Surie Ackerman-the secular media and cultural elites in Israel have been bashing Charedim for decades. OTOH, the Charedi media and some Charedi leaders have used imagery and rhetoric that evidences a strong absence of hakaras hatov for the hashkafic and halachic post 1948 facts of life in Israel, the IDF and the fact that a sovereign state of Israel has played no small part in the phoenix like rise of post WW2 Torah observant Jewish life and Jewish identity in general.

  46. Yaakov Menken says:

    Harry, you’ve already agreed the facts lie with me, so you should realize that different facts lead to different conclusions. No one is “vilifying” Yair Lapid. He quite proudly and deliberately got the Shaked commission to deviate from that which the Charedi community could live with, to declare bochurim criminals. What you call “vilifying” I call “not being an ostrich, which sticks its head in the sand to avoid seeing reality.” If you’ve learned anything from Middle East politics, its that you can’t negotiate a peace treaty with a guy busy waging war. Where do you see a willingness by Lapid to “live together in peace?” R’ Doron made the observation that Lapid’s party represents the relatively small percentage who want to beat the Charedim, not live with them, and the facts lie with him.

    Jonathan, interesting that you deviate from the community “pulling its weight” to a totally different conversation about charedi men having jobs. I employ two women in Israel, both of whom are the primary breadwinners of their families. They are quite sufficiently pulling their weight, are very proud of their husbands’ accomplishments and their contributions to making them possible (as am I), and you have provided no data at all about the net contribution of the Charedim vs. their draw from the government. And also… I said nothing about workplace discrimination. That was in the Mishpacha survey, so it’s up to you whether you call that an “allegation” or cold fact.

  47. Bob Miller says:

    Jonathan wrote above (11:36 AM), “This non-participation in the workforce is the root cause of the strife between charedim and the non-charedim.”

    Isn’t the root cause the estrangement of masses of Jews from traditional Judaism (often from any Judaism) in the 19th and 20th Centuries? We’re dealing with value systems radically at odds with one another. Retreating back into a shell was once, and may sometimes still be, the only way to resist pressures toward secularity.

  48. Jonathan says:

    Rabbi Menken, dare I suggest that your refusal to see the connection between the charedi community “pulling its [economic] weight” and “charedi men having jobs” is part of the problem?

    Relying on women who often lack a teudat bagrut and thus have limited earning potential to financially support 5-10 kids per family is a recipe for welfare dependency. Welfare dependency leads to non-charedi resentment for the tzibur not carrying its weight. Men are obligated by the ketuba and by our mesora to earn a parnassa for their families, or else to find willing community members to fund their learning. Until the charedi community follows this religious imperative, the current atmosphere of resentment and division will, sadly, continue.

  49. Steve Brizel says:

    Jonathan raised an interesting issue. The Charedi media in the US has profiled many Charedi males who are successful in busines or a profession, without intimating that they are not Charedim because they work for a living. In fact, if one goes to the Catskills in the summer, where many Charedim spend the summer months, you will see summer homes, as opposed to makeshift bungalows, owned by Charedim and many Charedim supporting the economy via their shopping at a local Staples, Wallmart and at Woodbury Commons

  50. Yaakov Menken says:

    Jonathan, you continue to posit that the community isn’t pulling its weight without evidence. As I said, you have provided no data at all about the net contribution of the Charedim vs. their draw from the government, and reminding me about a connection between working and income (as if that were necessary) does not provide license for unsubstatiated claims. As I’ve mentioned before, when you post without a real name, it’s easy to make blanket assertions without real facts.

    Steve, I think in a different political environment you’d see an increase in the trend of charedim going out to work. The circling of the wagons is a response to a real attack on the community and its values, but I think the trends seen over the last decade could continue to develop once Yesh Atid has gone the way of Ratz and Shinui.

  51. Chaim says:

    (although overall government support for charedim greatly exceeds the 1% of the budget spent on yeshivot; that figure completely excludes child payments and welfare)

    Untrue. See here, item 1: http://kalkala-amitit.blogspot.co.il/2013/02/10_11.html

  52. Menachem Lipkin says:

    Unfortunately, Rabbi Beckerman’s second comment was posted *after* I submitted my comment. My point by point analysis was intended to dispel the idea that either Yesh Atid, or Dov Lipman *hate* Chareidim. That was the clear implication of Rabbi Beckerman’s initial uncalled for broadside when he stated, “Sadly, Dov Lipman belongs to the party representing the other 10-15%”. I say clearly because many other commenters came to the same conclusion and Rabbi Beckerman himself seemed to feel the need to “clarify” himself by stating, “I did not say that my points are meant to prove that Yesh Atid hates Charedim or hates religion.” Since my responses only were meant to (and did) dispel that notion and since Rabbi Beckerman clarified himself then all that remains of these points is the typical nit-picking at the nexus of religion-state issues upon which people on opposing sides rarely get the other to agree.

    That said, I just want to address the thought, expressed by Rabbi Beckerman, that “The poll presents a general wish to gravitate toward tradition and preserve the State’s Jewish identity – Yesh Atid does not.” While I would definitely agree that Israelis in general are attempting to gravitate toward tradition, as I’ve seen in previous writings, Rabbi Beckerman seems not to grasp what that really means and hence doesn’t really understand Yesh Atid. Rabbi Beckerman seems only to understand “tradition” through a very narrow Chareidi lens. What is more clear, to those willing to look for it, is that Israelis are seeking tradition in non-traditional ways as well. And they don’t like being told what their Judaism should “look like”. Many Israelis, and certainly most Yesh Atid voters, care much less about Yair Lapid posting to Facebook on Shabbos than someone like Rabbi Beckerman making an issue out of it. Until Rabbi Beckerman, and so many like him, understand that people here do not want to have “tradition” imposed upon them, as has been done with growing intensity over the past 20 years of muscle flexing by the Chareidi parties, they will continue fail to grasp why a diverse party like Yesh Atid very much does represent what many Israelis, including a growing number of orthodox, want for this nation and why they are so thrilled to have the Chareidi parties out of power.

  53. Yehoshua Friedman says:

    I just finished reading R. Dr. Natan Ophir’s excellent biography of R. Shlomo Carlebach z”l. He was one of the fathers of the teshuva movement because he was able to love people where they were, on the street or even in foreign pastures, and give them an emotional incentive to identify with Judaism enough to want to come back for more. For his trouble, it took the frum establishment years to even put kiruv on the agenda, and then with a lot of preconditions. If you want to make a kiddush hashem in the world and in Israel, you just have to get out and do things that make the world respect and love our G-d. That means not being afraid to do good for others, to work for the common good, to be demonstrative in our love for our fellow human beings rather than like taking out the garbage. Go out and do things in the economy AND learn Torah AND plow some of those earnings into high-quality education which is NOT paid for by the government and doesn’t have 30-40 kids in a classroom and teachers who are unionized and tenured, but love their work. The Shuvu schools are a good start. We need more. We need Jews who will go to the festivals and the discoteques and the sports events and the Army and show love for our fellow Jews, and because those Jews are going to be turned off by “selections” when they are close to non-Jews, to them also. A sour disposition is not going to help anyone!

  54. adi says:

    chiming in with ben waxman. there’s definitely negative stuff said about charedim.

    the primary things I’ve heard about charedim are pretty much:
    ungrateful, parasite
    when particularly negative:
    shnorrers and thieves (emphasis on tax evasion and illegal business)

    actually, that’s one vein of criticism.
    the other, and perhaps more major vein, is that they’re self-righteous and arrogant extremists, who take their chumras and try to impose them on everyone. Usually backed up with a personal anecdote of having something thrown at them in meah shearim. (Or, alternately, an anecdote demonstrating how their chumras are farcical, like “kosher l’pesach l’ochlei kitniyot bilvad” napkins)
    when particularly negative:
    gleeful emphasis placed on their hypocrisy and spiritual failings.

  55. YM Goldstein says:

    Ever since this government took office it has been one setback after another in the international arena. Coincidence?

  56. Steve Brizel says:

    R Menken-You have a point but, I know of male heads of households who live in Charedi communities in Israel where they literally have had to disguise the fact that they earn a living. One can read the Charedi media in the US and see no such busha over such a fact of life. In the US, the Charedi community , which is subjected to media and academic critiques all the time, has long recognized that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

  57. Avraham Vass says:

    “They love me; they love me not”; only one of the two options is possible, since the two are mutually exclusive. Mina Tzamach is the pollster who predicted astounding victory for “Otzma Leyisrael”, “Shinui” just when they vanished, and, most recently, “Koach Lehashpia (Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak). None of these parties passed the minimal threshold. And that is not all.

    Some of Mishpacha’s editors must change their views just to keep things interesting for their very diverse readership. Who can blame them for trying to hold on to such a wide spectrum of opinion for their advertisers?

    The matter itself is complex, and I won’t do it justice.

  58. Yisrael Asper says:

    adi said:”chiming in with ben waxman. there’s definitely negative stuff said about charedim.

    the primary things I’ve heard about charedim are pretty much:
    ungrateful, parasite
    when particularly negative:
    shnorrers and thieves (emphasis on tax evasion and illegal business)

    actually, that’s one vein of criticism.
    the other, and perhaps more major vein, is that they’re self-righteous and arrogant extremists, who take their chumras and try to impose them on everyone. Usually backed up with a personal anecdote of having something thrown at them in meah shearim. (Or, alternately, an anecdote demonstrating how their chumras are farcical, like “kosher l’pesach l’ochlei kitniyot bilvad” napkins)
    when particularly negative:
    gleeful emphasis placed on their hypocrisy and spiritual failings.”

    A real life personalty straddling boundaries should make these sharply cutted stereotypes be reexamined.
    A follower of Rav Kook namely Rav Moshe Yaakov Charlop convinced according to a new work Ben Gurion to make an exemption from the draft in Israel for Yeshiva Bochurim and religious women. No one could accuse Rav Moshe Yaakov Charlop of doing it out of a lack of Hakoros Hatov for the state. The story is recounted by Rabbi Zevulun Charlop his grandson in an interview you can read online in the Jewish Press:”…Rabbi Charlop was head of Yeshiva University’s Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary (RIETS) from 1971-2008. He is currently special adviser to YU President Richard Joel on yeshiva affairs and rav of Young Israel of Mosholu Parkway” Rabbi Charlop:”…When the state was established, gedolim went to Ben-Gurion and asked him not to draft women and, later, yeshiva bachrim. If you read history books, they’ll name all the gedolim who [supposedly convinced Ben-Gurion to leave women and yeshiva bachurim alone]. But the truth of the matter is that he rejected them. It was only because of my grandfather who came to him and cried.

    Wasn’t it the Chazon Ish who convinced Ben-Gurion?

    According to a new biography about my grandfather that just came out, the Chazon Ish asked my grandfather to go to Ben-Gurion. It’s in the [official record] of the Knesset. When Ben-Gurion said he’s making these exemptions, his own party asked, “What’s going on here?” Ben-Gurion said in the Knesset: “I did it only for Rav Yaakov Moshe Charlop.”

    Why would he do it for your grandfather?

    Because my grandfather loved all Jews and was a lover of Eretz Yisrael.

    How close was your grandfather to Rav Kook?

    He was a talmid chaver. He was the only one in the room when Rav Kook died, and he gave an initial hesped when they were metaher Rav Kook’s body….

    They wrote amazing letters to each other. Someone once publicly called my zaidie a talmid chaver of Rav Kook, so my zaidie wrote to Rav Kook, saying, “I apologize, I never said to anybody that I’m, chas v’chalilah, your talmid chaver. How could I even dream of being your talmid – let alone your talmid chaver?” And Rav Kook wrote back, “How could I say that you’re my talmid? You’re my chaver.”

    How did your grandfather become Rav Kook’s talmid?

    He was haredi, completely haredi, like all the other Yerushalmim. He was considered a tzaddik when he was 20, 25 years old…”

    Before we start ascribing motives to others we should recognize that inflamers of hate are at best making a portrait that bears resemblance to reality the closer one gets to the extremes and at worst is full of nonsense. Here was a close follower both ideologically and personally with Rav Kook who was Chareidi in outlook except if supporting Rav Kook serves as an exception to the rule who was asking for and crying for the exemptions. If it was someone who was AntiZionist crying to Ben Gurion we can mock but in this case no? How about no hypocrisy and no mockery?

  59. ben dov says:

    “For his trouble, it took the frum establishment years to even put kiruv on the agenda, and then with a lot of preconditions.”

    Oh please. There was kiruv before him. And kiruv needs preconditions, like not kissing women.

  60. David F says:

    Menachem Lipkin writes:

    “Until Rabbi Beckerman, and so many like him, understand that people here do not want to have “tradition” imposed upon them, as has been done with growing intensity over the past 20 years of muscle flexing by the Chareidi parties”

    Menachem is correct. People don’t want a tradition imposed upon them any more than non-Zionists wanted to have Zionism imposed upon them by the ruling establishment especially in the early years of the Medinah when this was the norm. Furthermore, although Zionism as an ideology is not as popular as once before, it still has strong roots in the IDF where it is pushed with impudence, which is one of the main reasons Charedim resist the push to draft them into the IDF. If the IDF were ever to drop it’s adherence to Zionism, the resistance would lower significantly.

    IOW – it may be true that Charedi parties have flexed their muscles over the past 20 years, but I don’t think I’d call it “pushing tradition,” but rather, “pushing back against tradition being imposed on them.”

  61. Moshe Dick says:

    The subject has been debated almost ad nauseum and my comment would not advance it much. However,I must take exception to ben dov’s snarky comment about Shlomo Carlebach. Dear ben dov-you can only dream of the zechuyos that R’Shlomo accumulated over his life. So, I suggest you you look into your own failings and hope you can achieve one-thousandt of what R’Shlomo achieved

  62. Miriam says:

    Ever since this government took office it has been one setback after another in the international arena. Coincidence?

    Um, you mean when the Charedi parties were in the coalition, that Iran was under control? Or that the Palestinians weren’t bombing anyone? Huh?

  63. MJ says:

    I rarely comment here, but this is borderline insane: “If the IDF were ever to drop it’s adherence to Zionism, the resistance would lower significantly.”

    Yes, the IDF should drop its adherence to the belief in the necessity and legitimacy of a Jewish State. Great idea. In fact, if we drop Zionism we can move to the One State Final Solution and invite all the citizens, Hareidim and Arabs included, to defend the formerly Jewish State. That will work out splendidly.

    As with much of the Hareidi community, David F conflates Zionism with secularism. May be someone could have understandably made that mistake 50, 40, even 30 years ago. But today? Wake up and look around. Hard-core secularism is a marginal force in Israel and all but absent from non-religious nationalist Zionism. And in the IDF? Just look at the ever-growing percentage of commanders who are religious.

  64. c-l,c says:

    The goal of this article is more or less a head scratcher.

    The powers read these polls with mirth.
    If it proves anything at all,it proves the futility of democracy.

    Plus, peoples have been generally held responsible for who they, for whatever myriad of naive reasons,electorally supported(e.g.Egypt,PA,Labor Unions voting socialist,etc…….)

  65. L. Oberstein says:

    “People don’t want a tradition imposed upon them any more than non-Zionists wanted to have Zionism imposed upon them by the ruling establishment especially in the early years of the Medinah when this was the norm. Furthermore, although Zionism as an ideology is not as popular as once before, it still has strong roots in the IDF where it is pushed with impudence, which is one of the main reasons Charedim resist the push to draft them into the IDF. If the IDF were ever to drop it’s adherence to Zionism, the resistance would lower significantly.”

    I can’t understand how people can live with such cognative dissonance as the one who made the above comments. He actually suggests that the Israeli Army stop loyalty to the State of Israel.That is the implication. As I understand it, he is willng to have a militia on an ad hoc basis defend the “Yishuv” as long as there is no legitimacy to the Zionist Entity. What, pray tell, is the real underlying difference between Satmar and much of the chareidi world?

    To me, the ony difference is that Satmar is consistant. The chareidim take the money and still don’t really recognize the legitimacy of the State.

  66. Benshaul says:

    I am watching the lev la’achim kinus http://www.sharelive.tv/sharlive_Heb/sl27822.html
    and at 19:33 rav neugorshcal begins to answer and at 20:18 he says explicitly that the only ones who claim the Israeli public hate the charedim is the newspapers, including the charedi ones.

  67. David F says:

    L. Oberstein,

    ” He actually suggests that the Israeli Army stop loyalty to the State of Israel.That is the implication.”

    Did I say it or imply it? There is a difference. The only reason it doesn’t really matter is because I did neither. I neither said nor implied that the IDF should stop being loyal to the State of Israel. What I explicitly wrote was that they’re devotion to Zionism – in which I was referring to the theology of Zionism – needs to be loosened in order to make it more attractive to Chareidim. This is why MJ’s comments fails too. I never said what he alleges.

    I am Chareidi and certainly not Satmar and there is a very great between us. I have never taken a single penny from the State of Israel, but I’ve contributed many hundreds of thousands of dollars thanks to the business I conduct there and to the many yeshivos and charitable organizations I’ve contributed to. If you read an imagined implication in my comment that somehow implicated all Chareidim as Neturai Karte’niks, that is more of a reflection on you and your mindset than on that of Chareidim.

  68. David Z says:

    This is to Robert of long ago. I do not consider myself kharedi (in the modern sense), but I do wear a black hat and kipa on shabat and can understand that in Israel that makes you kharedi whether you like or not. That said, in my 1.5 years in Israel, a few incidents stand out. Walking alone Friday night in ts’fat, a car pulled out, the driver opened his door next to me, said “kharedi” with venom and spit on my shoe. He then drove off with nary a word. I’m not the type to react violently, but I was too shocked to even move, regardless. In another occasion in Tel-Aviv at a bus stop on motsae shabat I was verbally harassed by a few khilonit girls. My uncle, who was an admo”r there (and since retreated to b’ne-b’rak), had been spray-painted by khilonim on shabat and purim–and this was a guy who would go to store owners and say shabat shalom when he first started there–got burnt out. And numerous times, after sitting next to someone on a bus (often a khayal/a, I was told something to the effect of, “I didn’t know kharedim could be good people.” And I’ll tell you, I was exposed to this a lot more than your real kharedim, because I did travel in neighborhoods where most of them don’t venture. So the hatred is real. But it’s a chicken and the egg thing and if we have the tora that makes us the “adults” in the room–we have to be the ones to suck it up and act like men. And be moral paragons regardless.

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