Outmaneuvered by Two Young Women

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8 Responses

  1. cvmay says:

    As a woman, I have the largest accolades for W4W and am not surprised at their success.

    Two incidents from Chumash come to mind where women were supreme. Miriam and Yocheved as the birthing coaches, who saved multitudes of babies from death and were rewarded from Hashem with houses of Kings, Kohanim and Talmidei Chochamim. Bnos Tzlafchad who beseeched a din from Moshe regarding the laws of inheritance and provided future generations of women a portion in Eretz Yisroel. There is a women’s koach when working L’shem Shamayim. They possess a “power of dibur” which used properly reaps heavenly heights.

  2. Charlie Hall says:

    “there is something profoundly misogynistic about assuming that prayer is only meaningful when it apes that of men”

    Given that the overwhelming halachic consensus is that women are required to pray the same basic tefillah as men, would she say that Judaism is therefore profoundly misogynistic? Chas v’shalom!

  3. Crazy kanoiy says:

    Charlie Hall. I fail to see your point. Tefillah is not for men anymore than it is for ladies. When ladies pray they are not aping men anymore than when ladies eat or drink. Wearing Talis and Tefilin is an act of aping men because the mitzvah is zman grama, for men and not for ladies.

  4. Shaya Karlinsky says:

    Charlie Hall — I think it would be accurate to understand their statement as a “l’divreihem k’amr” – “I say it according to your words,” a concept in the Talmud adopting my opponents position to show its internal inconsistency in order to refute it, while I in fact disagree with the basic position. Of course “the same basic tefillah as men” is not misogynistic, no more so than any of the Mitzvos that apply equally to men and women. But for WoW to define equality and fairness as “being allowed to do it like the men” certainly makes the male way of doing it the benchmark. And it ignores the progress feminists themselves have made in realizing that “in our voice” is a more authentic goal than “the way the men do it.”

  5. Menachem Lipkin says:

    “When police put a cordon around the Old City on Sunday, Rosh Chodesh Tammuz, in order to allow WoW to conduct their rites at the Kosel, Leah Aharoni, one of the founders of Women For the Wall (W4W), already had a piece up on the Jerusalem Post site within hours pointing out the heavy price of WoW’s “freedom” to worship as they wished — i.e., large numbers of Jewish men and women who wanted to daven at the Kosel that morning were unable to do so and school children from outside the Old City were not able to get to classes.”

    Yes, I read Aharoni’s blog post. It was an exercise in the kind of thinking that has marked much of the discourse on this issue. Let’s put our thinking caps on and analyze why the police had to “protect” the Woman of the Wall, both by “caging” them and preventing hordes of people from flooding the Kotel Plaza. Oh right! The previous month they were assaulted by gangs of marauding “yeshiva guys” who were clearly incited by the mass protest (which shriveled to virtually nothing this month)instigated by the very women Rosenblum is praising here.

    Could the police have shown more finesse in how they protected the WoW? Sure. But to blame the WoW for police activity generated by the very people who lack the simple maturity and decency to have left them alone in the first place is simply perverse. The W4W and those who lack the most basic childhood ability to ignore that which bothers them have done more to elevate the WoW than anything in the past 24 years of their existence. Instead of a handful of women who came monthly to pray during that time all the folks at the Kotel can now thank Ms. Peskin and Ms. Aharoni for the hundred who have been coming recently and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. If I didn’t know better I’d think that they are secretly on the payroll of the WoW!

    [YA – Not sure you are correct on this one, Reb Menachem. I’m on your side about the error of not ignoring them. But once the conflict escalated, and WOW succeeded (whether compounded by our stupidity or not) in making change at the Kotel a front-burner item for the American heterodox movements, there had to be some pushback. These women (who are not haredi but DL!) simply wanted another voice to be heard besides that of Anat Hoffman et al. As far as I am concerned, their biggest mistake was been too modest, and asking the men to get involved, which led to a much larger protest last month than they had originally bargained for. The call to action by the men, in turn, attracted the small number of thugs who turned last month into a disaster. The police acted to prevent a recurrence of the month before, to ensure that the WOW would be able to do their thing without being hampered in any way. They were not protecting one group from another so much as creating a bubble of safe space. To create that bubble, however, thousands of people had to be inconvenienced. The municipality is not run by stupid people. They know full well that this cannot become a monthly practice. They are betting that the Sharansky process will yield some sort of satisfactory compromise that will allow things to return to normal.]

  6. Daniel says:

    Charlie: Your point is not very intellectually sound. Leah is responding to the notion of you and WoW that all rituals must mirror those of men, by saying that is misogynistic. Your response is that you find that some other rituals are the same?

    Are you trying to trick us into agreeing with you?

  7. Whoa Nelly says:

    Charles,

    And they should pray to the same G-d as well!! What do you say to that?

  8. Menachem Lipkin says:

    “They were not protecting one group from another so much as creating a bubble of safe space. To create that bubble, however, thousands of people had to be inconvenienced.”

    All I’m saying is that you can’t blame the WoW for that. Had there been no violence there would have been no need for a “bubble”. Nobody was “inconvenienced” the month prior when there were far more many “protesters” there. Had that gone peacefully, nobody would have been inconvenienced this month. The violence was, in fact, an indirect, yet totally predictable consequence of the W4W activities.

    [YA – …and the W4W activities were the indirect, yet totally predictable consequence of the WOW activities. (Anyone for a game of infinite regression?)]

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