No, I Can’t Prove It — Nor Do I Need To

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24 Responses

  1. mycroft says:

    “A glance at the picture doesn’t seem to show anyone doing anything like praying, nor am I aware of any particular desideratum in Jewish law or custom for that to happen. Recitation of psalms? ”

    I am not a Kabbalist-but I once went to Sefat. My biggest memory is one apparently Chasidic person-judginh ny his clothes stating in front of the kever of the Ari Z”L “Ari aneini” I don’t want to engage in
    theological discussions-but to me it is probable that some did actions like praying at the
    niftar. Certainly not a Brisker way or standard Yeshivish-but believe some mekuballim would.

  2. Ori Pomerantz says:

    Is it anti Orthodox bias, or anti Kabbalah bias? Many Heterodox Jews are uncomfortable with Kmeot and the like.

  3. Esther says:

    I read the article and did the same searches you did. What I noticed was that the article we are discussing was in the Mideast section, while the other personalities were actual obituaries. So on one hand, it’s not going to be an accurate comparison because the purpose of an obituary is to state the positive. But your point still stands because, why doesn’t a major Jewish figure merit an actual obituary in a Jewish publication? Also, there was definitely the emphasis on how Jewish the people you mentioned were, where there was really no content to the article on Rabbi Kadouri (except, as you avoid mentioning above, the irrelevant negative remarks on his personal life.). I do think that Ori Pomerantz may be right, though, because what most stood out in the article was the paragraph about his followers believing that everything he touched is holy.

  4. Steve Brizel says:

    I am not sure that I understand your comments re the other Gdolim who certainly published either in their lives or had monumental seforim published by their families and Yivadleinu LChaim R Elyashiv. T. Since when did we expect JTA to provide Othodox friendly news and
    analysis? I think that we delude ourselves to think otherwise.

  5. DP says:

    i fully agree that statements such as those found in this article/eulogy are offensive. the question is, are we to think this expresses a disregard for, or a desire to cheapen of the chashivus of rav kadouri, and, by extension, for orthodoxy? or is it just that, contrary to the pieces written about freidan, etc. – the writer just really couldn’t relate?

    now, if they just couldn’t reflect an appreciation for someone whom they – well, did not appreciate – then it’s a shame that the editor who commissioned the piece didn’t see fit to get someone who could work up some more enthusiasm.

    perhaps it’s naive to think that the editor would want to find this person who could have done better, because that would have been a sort of endorsement of a lifestyle that the paper would rather not present.

    my feeling is that the editor, too, couldn’t relate and had not much of an idea how clueless the gaffes showed the reporter to be. after all, if you don’t knwo that it isn’t praying per se which is done at the funeral, you just don’t know…

    to me, this is another sad reminder of how far apart we are – it doesn’t neccessarily demonstrate a willingness to be scornful, as much as it does a real lack of awaremess that is quite overwhelming.

    when you don’t get it, you just don’t get it!

  6. mycroft says:

    “Since when did we expect JTA to provide Othodox friendly news and
    analysis? I think that we delude ourselves to think otherwise.”

    Steve: What papers provide “objective” news about Orthodoxy?
    The Forward generally tries to be objective but not put a positive slant on Orthodoxy.
    The Jewish Press ,Homodia, Yated etc. depend on being in the good graces of the mosdot and thus will never write negative about the leaders.
    Steve most publications can be snide in obituaries. I hope that the writers in Cross Currents will in general avoid putting scarcastic comments in obituaries. By what I see so far Iam hopeful. Even chareidi monthly publications have done that-see eg the JO “obituary” of Rav Soloveitchik ZT”L in 1993. Of course, there were some in the Chareid camp who were outraged including R. Moshe Tendler and R. Yaacov Weinberg ZT”L.

  7. Michoel says:

    What did Rav Weinberg have to say about that article?

  8. Jewish Observer says:


    Did I infer correctly fron you that R. Moshe Tendler is in the Charedi camp?

  9. Edvallace says:


    As much as I agree with your general point that the Orthodox are treated like shmattes in the media, I honestly don’t think this is an example of that. To my eye, this is a fairly typical shoddy reporting job. Nothing more or less. They never really heard of him and theefore have no clue how to write in a manner that’s anything but generic.

    Having served as a resource for the local media I now all too well their complete inability to speak intelligently about most issues and thus I don’t see the big deal with this one. Maybe I’l naive but that’s how I see it.

  10. Steve Brizel says:

    Mykfroft-that was precisely my point. Mishpacha walks the edge between being objective but also never goes negative. Its serial story re a young kollel couple in all kinds of tzaros is as edgey a column
    that any Charedi organ will ever publish.

  11. Henry says:

    The article on Schindler calls him rabbi in the first paragraph but drops the title for him and for Eric Yoffie in any successive mentioning of a name. The style is apparently consistent.

  12. mycroft says:

    “What did Rav Weinberg have to say about that article?” He was upset-and like Rabbi Tendler protested the article. Of interest is that Rav Weinberg-may be the most prominent Chareidi person to have prepared a Hesped for Rav Soloveitchik-unfortunate4ly Rav Weinberg is niftar so one does not know if it was in response to the JO insult.

    “Did I infer correctly fron you that R. Moshe Tendler is in the Charedi camp?”
    At least partially. When one reads his letter-that circulated at the time in protest of the JO action-he refers not only to his “shvers” connection to the Agudah-but also his connection to the Agudah.

    “Mykfroft-that was precisely my point. Mishpacha walks the edge between being objective but also never goes negative”
    So Steve: we do agree occasionally? Tp the best of my knowledge we have never met-of course-by the picture when you were honored-you own a hat-I own no hats-certainly no black hats. Full disclosure_I own a lot of caps.Caps-not symbol of chareidism.

    “The style is apparently consistent” In which case Eytan Krobe’s point is incorrect. Full disclosure-I blieeve I have met Eytan-and recalll him aw very nice and personable.

  13. Jewish Observer says:

    “Rav Weinberg may be the most prominent Chareidi person to have prepared a Hesped for Rav Soloveitchik”

    I agree. I think the operative phrase is “most charedi”, because I can’t imagine RW would have labeled himdself as charedi (I knew him a little).

    I read the RW hesped. From my memory it focused on RS’s scholorshaip and abilities as a pedagogue but steered clear of his tzidkus. Knowing RW this was not at all due to any charedi PC-ness (I never observed that trait in him) but a reflection of his true hashkafa. The bottom line is that reactions to RS’s petirah were consistent across the spectrum. RW (whom, as I said, I doubt would have called himself charedi) had enough tolerance/respect for RS to be maspid, however neutrally. If you slide to the left you got more viogr, and if you slide to the right you get less (e.g. the agudah article) or none. Charedism is not black and white and correspondingly neither is its hashkafa. I still have a hard time calling RMT a charedi.

  14. Michoel says:

    I understood from your first post that he was upset. I ask you again, what did he say?

  15. Bob Miller says:

    No effective pressure can be brought on JTA, since its biases are shared by a high proportion of its media clients and the overall Jewish news-reading public. If someone else now wants to tell a truthful story from an Orthodox perspective, many ways now exist to get the word out. No need to waste ink or pixels on JTA.

  16. Michoel says:

    I thin that Jewish Media Resources is try to be a Torah true JTA of sorts, and that is a very positiv thing. However, I also think that it is well within the range of normal hishtadlus to try and get JTA to change. From looking at there staff profiles, I don’t think they have on writer who is a shomer mitzvos. That can be changed with some effort and it should be changed.

  17. Steve Brizel says:

    Mycroft-we agree more than we disagree and when we disagree, it is always in a respectful manner and yes, I do own at least one hat. I wear a cap during the week but a hat for Shabbos, Yom Tov and any special event. R Weinberg ZTl was quite willing to and gave a hesped at Shomrei Emunah for RYBS . I would also disagree with your description of R M Tendler as being Charedi. RMT is as close an advertisement for Torah Umadah as anyone and his views on
    Metzitzah BaPeh and brain death are not exactly accepted by the Charedi world.

  18. mycroft says:

    My recollection is that to put it mildly Rav Weinberg ZT”L was upset at the JO obituary.
    Since he is in the olam haemet-surely in a high place in the Yeshiva Shel Maala=mothing is gained by nitpicking the details.

    Regarding my 327 AM post Just a clarification-I know I have met Eytan Krobe. We may disagree on political matters at times- but notI not only believe he is nice and personable-I know that he is a mentsch. I hope in the cross-current world that my approbation of Eytan is not held against him.

  19. Michoel says:

    I am not nitpicking. I have this funny interest in seeing the words of an adam gadol inside. “He said this, he holds that, I overheard it on the train from the Rosh Yeshiva’s third cousin.” I don’t consider such discussions fruitful. They can actually cause problems. (I don’t doubt for a minute that what you are saying is true.) I googled around for some quote of the hespid that Steve mentioned but haven’t come up with anything. If someone knows of a link or a place that I could get hold of a tape, I would appreciate it greatly.

  20. Steve Brizel says:

    R Weinberg ZTL’s hesped was printed in a book of hespedim on RYBS entitled “Memories of a Giant”, published by Urim.

  21. Michoel says:

    Thanks Steve.

  22. Jewish Observer says:

    Nitpicking is what you are doing when I don’t want to answer. Obstinate is what you are being when you don’t want to answer. Carl Reiner had a similr vort about something being funny when it happens to you.

  23. mycroft says:

    “R Weinberg ZTL’s hesped was printed in a book of hespedim on RYBS entitled “Memories of a Giant”, published by Urim.”
    Just a query-if I recollect correctly-the book opf hespedim lists every Rosh Yeshiva who is niftar as ZT”L everyone else Z”L. Is that the definition of a Zaddik-a Rosh Yeshiva. A very good book to read.

  24. Jewish Observer says:

    “lists every Rosh Yeshiva who is niftar as ZT”L everyone else Z”L”

    – who else in the book might have been ZT”L ?

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