A Jewish Answer to Neturei Karta

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60 Responses

  1. Yoel says:

    I was shocked. I knew that NK rejected the State of Israel to the point of encouraging the murder of all the Jews living there, but to deny the Holocaust is insane. A sound Halachic argument (with which I do not agree) can be made against the founding of the state before the coming of Moshiach, but I am simply dumbfounded by their rejection of the Holocaust as historical fact. Nauseating.

  2. Bob Miller says:

    NK today is nothing but sick minds at work. No connection to Judaism except the costume/disguise.

  3. Baruch Horowitz says:

    I assume that NK of today believe that the State can cause another Holocaust, G-d forbid, which is a legitimate belief in of itself, even if most of us reject it as untenable. They therefore engage in what is to us outrageous and traitorous behavior.

    However, what makes the NK of today “fundamentalists”, is that they are not content to merely wait for Israel to be peacefully dismantled. One of their problems is that they do not have a rebbe or teacher. I think that Satmar has publicly disassociated themselves from them. There have also been recent grass-roots criticisms in the American Yated.

    The question is what should the communal response be, both within Satmar and without. How does one deal with Jews that are tragically misguided, but engage in dangerous behavior? Is it better to ignore them, or should mainstream organizations issue condemnations?

  4. HILLEL says:

    I recently interviewed Rabbi Moshe Ber Beck, idealogical head of the Neturei Karta in the US.

    He does not advocate the “murder of Jews,” anywhere, anytime, under any circumstances. Such an assertion is slander of the worst sort.

    Nor does he “deny the Holocaust.”–That’s another misrepresentation of his position.

    Rabbi Beck is a well-known Talmid Chochom wo claims to represent the true Torah position on how to deal with the Arab danger to the world Jewish community. He is supported by a number of other prominent Rabbis.

    From the interview, it became clear that Rabbi Beck and his supporters in the Neteurei Karta movement are on a mission to save the Jewish People from themselves. They are convinced that the best way to protect Jews is to empathise with the suffering of the Arab community in Palestine, and to disband the Jewish State.

    They totally agree with the RAMBA”M, who wrote, in his famous “Igeres Taimon” (letter to the Jewish community of Yemen), that it is suicidal to create a Jewish state in the Moslem world–that the best policy when dealing with Moslem rulers is to be quiet and keep a low profile–the very opposite of what are Jewish leaders are doing today.

    I asked Rabbi Beck whether there would be a bloodbath if Eretz Yisroel were to be ruled by Arabs again. He said no, things would settle down–that’s his judgement.

    Personally, I don’t know. The present situation, in which we rely on Olmert, Peretz, and Halutz for protecttion is not very promising.

    I prefer to pass the buck, and rely on the Torah leaders of our generation for guidance.

    Most Torah leaders do not agree with Rabbi Beck, but it is wrong to slander him and misrepresent what his position. He is doing what he believes to be best for the Jewish People, as he sees it.

  5. Bob Miller says:

    Hillel said “Most Torah leaders do not agree with Rabbi Beck”

    Which do agree with both NK philosophy and NK tactics?

  6. Micha Berger says:

    The Neturei Karta who know how to use the media, have the political wherewithall to meet these govermental figures y”sh, and who have a web site do not represent the movement. Just being worldly enough to have these skills should prove that point.

    I was also told by someone in NK in Israel that their consensus is that the sanity of most of the more infamous group is in question. This is meant in a clinical sense, not as an insult. In other words, they aren’t necessarily halachically culpable for their actions. I think that from a halachic perspective and our obligation to judge others’ favorably, this is a recommended assumption.

    -mi

  7. L.Oberstein says:

    The battles of the 19th century should be over. There is a State of Israel. It is far from ideal but we have the merit to live there in a way that our ancestors only dreamed of. We live in a secular world and Jews are the most secular of all. In the short run, Zionism kept many Jews a part of the People of Israel and gave them a goal for which they were willing to sacrifice their lives. Today, we see that secular zionism is only a one or two generation solution. I hope Hashem will give the religious Jews the wisdom to have a positive influence on secular Jews to show them the way back to our heritage.
    as for me, I have trouble with closet neturei karta people who enjoy all the benefits of the Israeli welfare state but feel no responsiblity.
    The mentally ill people who give Neturei Karta are less an issue for me than the intellilgent people who are still fighting zionism as if they lived in the shtetle in the 19th century. Haven’t they learned anything from the Holocaust?

  8. S. says:

    They explain to us Doeg the Idumean in Tanakh, who we are told by Chazal was a great Torah scholar and even David’s rabbi. He was also the murderer of the city of Cohanim.

    This teaches us that people such as the NK can exist (which is not to say that they are even talmidie chachamim, having seen no evidence that they are), and conversely such people like Doeg.

  9. mb says:

    NK did not appear in a vacuum. They are at an extreme end of philosophy that often did and still does exhibit hatred. Every movement has it’s extremes.

  10. Shmuel Bergenfeld says:

    Hillel – maybe YOU should’ve been there kissing Ahmadenijad!

  11. Baruch Horowitz says:

    “the intellilgent people who are still fighting zionism as if they lived in the shtetle in the 19th century”

    There are different reasons why people may be opposed to Zionism, as discussed by Rabbi Joseph Grunblatt in “Exile and Redemption”, if I recall correctly. Those who object to Jewish sovereignty in a pre-Messianic age because of the “Three Oaths” indeed have not changed their position after the Holocaust, or after the State’s founding. For example, they will not visit the Kosel on principle, because it was captured by a Jewish army.

    There are others who have somewhat made peace with an imperfect Jewish State(perhaps analogous to the Bayis Sheni government), even if they don’t officially “recognize” it. Gedolim have said that after the State’s founding, one must due as much as possible for the furtherance of Torah observance and education, and forget about the theoretical debates of the pre-State era.

    The issue of charedim “recognizing” a Jewish State(flag, nationalism and holidays) should be seen in the backdrop of the battles between secularists and the Old Yishuv, drafting of women, as well as the issue of the Jewish Agency’s tragic processing of Sephardic immigrants in the early days of the state.

    Theoretically, if the majority of Israel would be religious or sympathetic to religion, then charedim might concede and emphasize that a Jewish State needs to exist according to natural means, in concert with Divine help. Poskim would then have to make decisions on a national level, and charedim would participate in the army and in general society as well, to a greater extent than they currently do.

  12. Rivka W. says:

    Micha, they may be worldly, but they cannot SPELL! That website makes my eyes bleed for all kinds of reasons.

  13. Ori Pomerantz says:

    Hillel, for some decisions we go to a Talmid Chacham. For example, a Talmid Chacham would be the best expert to tell us if a blog post constitutes Lashon Hara.

    Other decisions go to other people. For example, when somebody is injured the first priority is to call 911 and get them to an ER. Asking a Rabbi for a blessing can wait until the medics and doctors are handling the physical side.

    Is the question: “what would the Arabs do to the Jews if they were to rule Eretz Israel” a member of the first group, or the second?

  14. Ori Pomerantz says:

    Shmuel Bergenfeld, why do you think Hillel would have the slightest interest in kissing Ahmadenijad? Seems to me that he is reporting Rabbi Beck’s position, which he knows from direct experience. That is a useful addition to a discussion about Neturei Karta.

    That does not mean he agrees with Rabbi Beck, merely that he believes that “heve dan kol adam lekaf zchut”, judge everybody favorably, applies to him.

  15. easterner says:

    let us at least acknowledge that the NK are consistent in their furious refusal to use zioni$t money, unlike other$ who ,while not being part of the Zionist enterprise, are vehement in their demands for its Mammon…..

  16. Elyse says:

    Why do some of you suggest that “judging favorably” is the primary halachic issue for a public, political situation with potential impact upon millions of Jews?

  17. YM says:

    I believe that there is a concept that there is a level of prophescy or divine inspiration in the actions of the (Torah committed) Jewish Community as a whole; this community has chosen to support the State of Israel.

  18. HILLEL says:

    To All:

    I’m willing to admit that I am not qualified to decide issues of this magnitude, especially since they involve life and death.

    We must rely on the Torah giants who gave us their views on the subject.

    The Neteurei Karta consists of a group of Chasidim who are convinced that they alone are the only remaining faithful disciples of the late Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, ZT”L–the “Satmar Rebbe.”

    As many of you you know, the Rebbe wrote a highly-respected sefer, “VaYoel Moshe,” in which he presented the Torah underpinnings of his position opposing the establishment of the Jewish State before the coming of the Messiah. He made it clear that such an undertaking was life-threatening for the Jewish community.

    Agudas Yisroel head Rav Reuven Grosovsky, ZT”L, in his sefer “BoyAs HaZeMan,” stated that the Neteurei Karta position may, indeed, be a valid Torah position, but he and his Agudah colleages have taken the position that it is necessary to deal with the reality of the secular Zionist State, with all its implications.

    The Neteurei Karta position is a minority position today, and it often results in actions that seem queer to those of us who are not familiar with their real motivations and philosophy.

    Rav Beck, their idealogical leader, told me that, in his opinion, many Jews in the Arab world today are safe only because the Neteurei Karta exists and publicises the fact that not all Jews are necessarily Zionists who oppress and kill Arabs. (Note that Ahmadinejad distinguished between Jews and Zionists when he was in New York.)

  19. mb says:

    NK are not Chassidim.
    The Satmar Rebbe had an extreme position. And he was wrong.
    The claim by NK that they are protecting Jewish lives is idiotic.

  20. Bob Miller says:

    Hillel,

    You have not produced even one name of a present-day Gadol who condones current NK activities in support of Muslim (Arab, Iranian…) terrorist entities and leaders.

    We are talking here about NK’s recent and ongoing actions. Any philosophical smokescreen about what past Gedolim said or didn’t say about Zionism is not to the point.

  21. S. says:

    If NK’s ideology is that Jews are obliged to display a posture of obeisance before the goyim, how do they justify trucking with enemies of the United States? Showing admiration and giving chizuk to Ahmadinejad is a pointed slap in the United States–the real hegemon’s–face. What disloyalty. What lunatics.

  22. katrina says:

    re: the comment by the poster hillel,
    “They [NK] totally agree with the RAMBA”M, who wrote, in his famous “Igeres Taimon” (letter to the Jewish community of Yemen), that it is suicidal to create a Jewish state in the Moslem world—that the best policy when dealing with Moslem rulers is to be quiet and keep a low profile—the very opposite of what are Jewish leaders are doing today.”

    that’s an argument from the past, there IS a Jewish state now and it’s loud and high profile

    it’s this comment that gives me chills:
    “I asked Rabbi Beck whether there would be a bloodbath if Eretz Yisroel were to be ruled by Arabs again. He said no, things would settle down—that’s his judgement.”

    okay, so he thinks there would not be a bloodbath, that’s arguable but lets say he’s correct. What about spiritual suffering? What would it do to the collective Jewish soul to have our Holy Land wrenched from us? To have to go back to bowing our heads like good little dhimmis so as not to anger the m’slims?

    The world and the NK’s act as if it’s nothing to dismantle Israel if it will calm down the m’slims. As if pograms, the Inquisition, the Holocaust, the synagogue burnings, the dhimmi laws, the prayers of generations of Jews saying, “If I forget thee O Jerusalem” and yes even the atheist zionist’s hope for a place for Jews to live in peace-ALL of this is treated as if it’s nothing. The Jews regained their Holy Land for awhile but it angered the m’slims so it was dismantled. No big deal.There wasn’t a bloodbath.

    I remember reading a quote by an African American man regarding racism and he said something like this: at least when they call me a n-gger I know I exist, when their voices are filled with hatred, I know that I am standing for something important, the worst is when they call me “boy” as if it’s nothing.

    A Jew is required to die rather than convert. While this is a different situation, consider what it will do to the Jewish Soul to lose our Holy Land now.

  23. Ori Pomerantz says:

    Elyse: Why do some of you suggest that “judging favorably” is the primary halachic issue for a public, political situation with potential impact upon millions of Jews?

    Ori: I don’t know if this was directed at me, but in case it was, here’s my answer. I see no reason not to judge NK favorably. I expect them to have a significant effect around the time Osama Bin Laden joins the US Air Force to command a squadron of flying pigs on a humanitarian mission to deliver cold-weather gear to hell.

    I can’t imaigne any Arabs who oppose Israel saying: “We thought that we should co-exist with the state of Israel, but now that we spoke with NK we see that we should rule Palestine, and therefore we need to keep fighting until we win”. I can’t imagine any of the westerners who are against Israel thinking: “We thought maybe Israel has a right to exist, but now that we spoke with NK, whom we trust because they are so devout in a religion we consider wrong, we decided it doesn’t”.

    There are many groups in the world who oppose Israel. Some of them have the guns, money, or votes to make a difference. NK isn’t one of those groups. NK is not trusted by any of those groups. Therefore, I don’t see them as a factor. Politics sometimes forces us to judge people before we reach their place, but that is reserved to political threats.

    I need to confess that I used a bit of hyperbole in my first paragraph. There is one scenario where NK could have influence, and that’s a positive one. We could, chas veshalom, lose Israel. I’m not saying it’s likely, but it has happened before. In such a case, as katrina said, there will be a huge crisis of faith in the Jewish world. Having a group that could say: “Torah is as it has always been, it’s just that some leaders pulled a Rabbi Akiva and misinterpreted the facts” is a back up plan to fight that crisis, should it happen.

  24. Aaron says:

    Moshe Hirsch with Yasser Arafat.

    No, this isn’t Hirsch with a diplomat, but a bloody-handed rodef.

    Documentation of Hirsch on Arafat’s payroll.

    Any claims of NK “altruism” should take the above into account.

  25. Daniel Weltman says:

    Hillel,
    The NK marched with the Palestinians against Israel on Shabbos. They break the laws of the Torah, and are treasonous. They are merciful to the wicked, and immediately they prove chazal right by being cruel to the merciful. Satmar and most strains of OJ have excommunicated them, and they have been called kofrim by great rabbis.

    By defending these people you may bring upon yourself the punishment that will rain down on them. אוי לרשע ואוי לשכנו.

  26. HILLEL says:

    To Bob Miller:

    Two very-respected Talmedei Chachomim published a Kol-Koreh about two years ago warning all Jews to leave the NK alone, because they were engaged in Hatazolas Nefoshos.

    They signed their names, and I know who they are. However, in the current highly-charged atmosphere, I choose not to publicise their names to prevent them from being subjected to violence.

    It has always been the fate of people who say unpopular things to be subjected to violence and villification.

    The prophets wrote: “GaVee NoSaTee Lamakim, U’LeChoYai LaMorTim…” The prophets were beaten and spat upon for warning that he Temple would be destroyed, if the Jewish People did not repent their sins. The prophet Zechariah was murdered in the Bais Hamikdosh.

    I’m not saying that the NK are prophets, only that ehir villification does not necessarily mean tha they are doind something wrong. Reputable people have defended at least some of Nk’s activities.

    To Katrina:

    You’re right, the Jewish People are at their best when they are in their own land, under their own king. This idyllic existence started about 3,500 years ago and lasted for almost 1500 years (with some interruptions.

    However, for our sins, we were expelled by G-D and cast into Golus-exile. We have been in exile now for about 2,000 years. Our survival for that extended time period is itself a great miracle that demostrates G-D’s ever-vigilant protective shield over His People.

    We have no right to rebel against G-D’s plan.

    We do expect–soon–that HaShem will, once again, welcome us back to Eretz Yisroel under Melech Hamoshiach, may he come speedily in our days.

    The preparations are already in high gear. Even the most secular Israelis are disillusioned with their secular political leadership, and they now are coming to the realization that “We have have no one to rely upon, except our Father in Heaven.”

    That is precisely the attitude which–according to the Talmud–will convince G-D that we are worthy of the restoration of Zion and Jerusalem.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3313340,00.html

  27. Bob Miller says:

    Hillel said “They signed their names, and I know who they are. However, in the current highly-charged atmosphere, I choose not to publicise their names to prevent them from being subjected to violence.”

    The Arabs that NK fraternizes with commit real violence against Jews (including talmidei chachamim!) and on a grand scale. Not like the hypothetical violence you imagine above.

  28. Bob Miller says:

    And, Hillel, are people who sign a Kol Koreh concerned that it will be made public?

  29. Yakov M Rabkin says:

    The question of Haredi opposition to Zionism is the subject of my recent book which appeared earlier this year under the title A Threat from Within; a Century of Jewish Opposition to Zionism. I have tried to explain the various positions and their rationales. The book has elicited significant interest since its publication in the original French two years ago, and is now available in six languages. In my opinion, it is important tounderstand this phenomenon and discuss it calmly and dispassionately.

  30. Yaakov Menken says:

    Hillel,

    A “signed Kol Koreh” with no named signatories is no Kol Koreh at all. A Kol Koreh is a public declaration — if the names aren’t public, the credibility of this “Kol Koreh” is no higher than those published by any anonymous “Vaad” on the walls of Meah Shearim or on flyers in shul.

    Furthermore, given that the members of the NK are quite public, and indeed put themselves in front of the media absolutely as often as they can, it seems bizarre to state that it is not they, but any Rabbi who would say nothing more than “leave them alone,” who has something to fear.

  31. Baruch Horowitz says:

    Neturie Karta is entitled to its opinion that the State of Israel could lead to a Holocaust, G-d forbid, because it is in violation of the “three oaths”. It is also entitled to its view that negotiating with Ahmadinejad(yimach s’hmo) and/or dismantling Israel could lead to peace(!). Furthemore, some elements of Jewish-Islamic dialogue, such as that of “Imams and Rabbis for World Peace” may be supported by some rabbis. However, being on Yassir Araft’s (yimach shmo) payroll, attending his funeral, and embracing and standing side by side with our enemies, is supported by no Halachic authority.

    Charedie press releases in 2002 and 2004 stated that “Under no circumstances should the media insinuate that ANY of their actions are associated with the hareidi or hassidic community”(see link at end). Neturie Karta must take into consideration the views of the rest of Klal Yisrael.

    The Jewish people, like any nation, can not exist in disunity. The reason why there is a halacha of “zaken mamre” is so there should not be an increase in disunity(Rambam, Mamrim, third perek). The Chinuch(496) states that this is the reason why we follow the majority even when “right is left and the left is right”. Even in exile, there is a concept of Jewish nationalism. Every person is entitled to open their own shtible(small synagouge) in which to pray, but a nation can not exist like the Wild West.

    The Altalena Affair, the assassinations of Dr. Jacob Israel de Haan, PM Yitzchak Rabin and Dr. Chaim Arlosoroff (still unsolved) were all murders, obviously had no Halachic basis, and were caused because one individual or group thought that a drastic action was necessary to save many lives. Even if the Zionist Establishment, for example, at the time “held” that Dr. de Haan was a “rodef” because his negotiating threatened the Jewish State, rodef is not something which can be applied by everyone on their own, lest the situation resemble the Wild West(besides the fact that a “rodef” needs to be stopped, not unnecessarily killed, as per Rambam Rotzeach V’shmiras Hanefesh, first perek). So too, even if NK believes that the State of Israel is a “Rodef”, they may not act on their own.

    Neturei Karta is perhaps entitled to take its position to a unified Beis Din, perhaps consisting of representitives from Chassidim, Litvish, Sephardim, and Mizrachiim(:)), and agree to abide by its ruling. However, in its absence, it may not rely on anonymous Poskim(?) on a Kol Koreh against the consensus of the rest of the Jewish people.

    http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=71966

  32. Bob Miller says:

    Even if Hillel named the “signatories”, I’d doubt they signed it. This whole bizarre defense of the indefensible is well-meant but futile.

  33. Steve Brizel says:

    R Menken-WADR, your discussion of NK as if it represents a legitimate shitah even within the Charedi world under the First Amendment and or Torah Hashkafah, is curious, to say the least. First of all, the CI and other Gdolim, none of whom could be remotely be considered as RZ in their outlook, all viewed NK and the SR as having raised arguments that were valid for pre 1948 time period only. Of course, some Charedi Gdolim viewed either the SR or NK as expressing views that should be allowed to heard because there was some truth to their perspective.Perhaps, that is the basis for saying that you believe that NK should be allowed to express its view, but that we should condemn the same.

    However, one can argue that NK’s recent conduct would raise questions as to the viability of such a policy which amounts to alternately condemning but allowing their POV to express itself,despite its dangers to all Jews in EY and ChuL.NK received substantial amounts of financial aid from Arafat, Yimach Shmo vZicro. In 2002, NK appeared on Shabbos at an anti Israel rally. These events led to numerous kol korehs signed by Gdolim,RY and Admorim, all Charedi, advising Charedim from associating with this group, which has a fetish of appearing in public with those who probably qualify as spiritual descendants of Amalek. The notion that Hamas, Hezbollah or the PA would allow Jews to live in EY even as dhimine under Islamic law without oppressing Jews’ religious rights or without exacting another Holocaust R”L on other Jews is at best wishful thinking and at worst intellectual dishonesty on a grand scale that shows a detachment from current and past political and historical reality. It is remarkable that a group that describes itself as Orthodox and anti Zionist would stoop to taking money from a Roteach Yimach shmo vZicro. I tend to doubt that such vociferous opponents of Zionism sucn as the R E Wasserman , HaShem Yimkam Damo and ZTL or the SR or the Brisker Rav, Zicronam Livracha accepted funds from the likes of Hitler, Stalin or the Mufti, Yimach Sham vZicram.

  34. Yaakov Menken says:

    Steve, none of the discussion here should be misperceived as indicating any sort of legitimacy for the NK from my perspective. On the contrary, this post was titled “A Jewish Answer to Neturei Karta,” derived from the fact that it was posted to JewishAnswers, of course, but also intended to indicate that there is Neturei Karta, and there is the Jewish position. Just reread the last paragraph of the posted response!

  35. Ori Pomerantz says:

    Steve Brizel, do you think anybody takes NK seriously enough to change their behavior? If not, then there is no risk to Jews.

  36. Steve Brizel says:

    Like it or not, one reads and sees enough evidence of the following POV re NK from many self-identified talmidim of many of the most prominent Charedi yeshivos-we will never support NK and we will condemn its excesses but there is at least a shade of truth to some of their arguments. The fact that argument still exists today is disturbing.

  37. Ahron says:

    I agree. There is no question that there is a quiet but persistent breath of sympathy for NK within the modern Yeshivishe system. I think this is strongly influenced by NK’s frequent use of terms like “Hashem”, “Torah”, and “Yidden” and their donning of tzitzis, felt, and frocks.

    The “They-believe-so-strongly-in-what-they’re-doing” and “They’re-trying-to-help-Am-Yisroel” arguments are both vacuous and irrelevant…. but they are heard nonetheless. Admiration for NK’s passion is important only insofar as it indicates a deeply felt lack of passion in one’s own social setting. And extreme Leftist Jews also believe that they are helping Am Yisroel, as did the Sadducee high priests on Yom Kippurs past. All of the above groups are incorrect. Yet there is no sympathy for the latter two groups within Yeshivishe societies–that is because we understand, with clarity and without dissimulation, that the two non-NK groups were/are sincere and passionate believers in something that is untrue and wrong. (Would, for example, our own ‘HILLEL’ evince empathy for a group of Jewish leftists who flew to Teheran and embraced Ahmadinejad?)

    Similar clarity has never taken hold with regards to the yeshivishe world’s attitude towards NK. Ergo NK’s marketing efforts (combined with frum inertia, nostalgia, romance and indecision) have gained some successes.

  38. Tal Benschar says:

    Steve and Ahron:

    I don’t know what you are so surprised about. The Charedi world, at least at its top, remains anti-Zionist, and has been so since the days of R. Chaim Brisker — who famously said that Zionism is the yetser hara of the Jewish people.

    While the Charedi leadership rejects the tactics of NK, it agrees that fundamentally a secular State is anathema to the Torah. (There are also some who reject the notion of any state prior to Messianic times, ala the Satmar position, but you don’t need to go there, the first part is more than enough.) That view may not be trumpeted in the papers, but it remains the view of many charedi gedolim.

    That, BTW, is the difference between the attitude towards NK and a leftist who might meet with Arafat or the current president of Iran. The former are doing so in a misguided zeal to protect the Torah. The latter are doing so as part of the 200 year old war by some Jewish elements to eradicate the Torah as the linchpin of Jewish identity and existence. That is why the former is viewed by some with the indulgence of a chossid shoteh, while the latter is viewed as a rasha merusha.

    (Of course, as the Chofetz Chaim once said, one fool can cause more harm than 10 wicked people. Perhaps that applies here as well.)

  39. Ori Pomerantz says:

    I thought about it, and I was wrong. I still think that nobody non-Jewish takes NK seriously enough to change their behavior. However, some Israeli secular Jews (= Chilonim), who are unfamiliar with the Charedi world, believe that NK represent a mainstream Charedi opinion. This causes Chilul Hashem.

  40. HILLEL says:

    To Bob and Yaakov:

    The Rabbis DID SIGN their names to the Kol Koreh, which was also published in Newspapers at the time (a couple of years ago.)I choose not to repeat their names in the present highly-charged atmosphere.

    These are well-known, very sincere rabbonim, who take their responsibilities seriously. However, they come from a different worldview, based mainly on the writings of the late Grand-Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, ZT”L, the Satmarer Rov.

    What we are dealing with here are two very dfferent universes of discourse–two definitions of existential reality, which cannot be reconciled.

  41. Jacob Haller says:

    Ahron wrote

    “There is no question that there is a quiet but persistent breath of sympathy for NK within the modern Yeshivishe system”

    That post didn’t include any evidence that the “yeshivishe system” (a term which wasn’t defined in the post either) sympathizes with NK that one should believe it “without question”.

    Has anyone from Aguda’s Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah ever commented or (to fit in with the all-too-convenient convenient “quiet” disclaimer) implied anything of such?

    During the Lebanon war in Tamuz/Av the very non-Zionist Eda Charedis (which disdains the Aguda’s for perceived recognition of the Medina) canceled Bein HaZmanim for their affiliated yeshivos.

    One could opine that this was an apolitical act done merely to prevent further bloodshed but it appears far-fetched that an NK sympathizer would take a stand that could be construed as a gesture of sympathy with the general Israeli populace.

  42. Ori Pomerantz says:

    Hillel, could you please contact these Rabbis and ask for their permission to disclose their names? Having expressed an opinion, they are probably proud of it and would not mind their names being used to advance it. It is commendable that you don’t want to expose other people to criticism. However, you don’t mind being criticised yourself for your opinions (I know that because you keep posting here). It would be good if you gave those Rabbis the choice of whether they want to be criticised themselves or not.

  43. Baruch Horowitz says:

    “What we are dealing with here are two very dfferent universes of discourse—two definitions of existential reality, which cannot be reconciled”

    There must be some possibility of dialogue to be kept open. It is not a hefker-velt(free for all) where anyone can do what they feel is best without thinking of “yenner and plonie”(other people). As an analogy, we see this from the United Nations’ peace-keeping efforts. Once the UN determines that dialogue is impossible, then permission is granted for two sides to start shooting at each other. Also by the biblical S’dom, once the defender left, then all hope was lost, and permission was given to begin destruction. We should never reach the point when the Jewish people give up hope of talking with each other.

    One can not read Hashem’s mind. It may be that NK’s attitude is responsible for delaying the Moshiach, as much as that of the Zionists(in their opinion). I continue to hope that responsible voices within Satmar will be able to convince Neteurie Karta that they are not balie batim(in authority) of matters which pertain to the entire Jewish people.

  44. Bob Miller says:

    I’d like to see an accurate translation of the Kol Koreh so we can know which NK activity the signatories actually endorsed. I have a hunch that giving aid and comfort to terrorists was not such an activity.

  45. HILLEL says:

    A point to ponder:

    The Neteurei Karta position may not make sense to many of you, but Michael Savage, who has one of the most popular talk shows in the U.S., agrees with at least one of their major points.

    Last week, Michael went-off on a 10-minute tirade against America’s immoral cultural exports to the Arab world. He said that the immoral and degenerate products emanating from Hollywood and New York are creating an explosion of hatred in The Arab world, which will never accept the subversion of their children’s modesty by America.

    He further stated that the secular State of Israel is considered a cultural beachead for America in the Moslem world, and as such, is subjected to the same hatred.

    To further emphasize his point, he said that Iran would never accept a GayPride parade on the streets of Teheran, while the Israeli Supreme Court ordered the city of Jerusalem to allow it and even pay its expenses.–“BoshNu MiKal Am.”

    He noted that Orthodox Jews feel the same way about immorality as the Arabs.–(A Kiddush HaShem, in my opinion).

    Michael Savage is probably the keenest observer of the political and social scene on the airwaves. He has multiple PHD degrees. So he can’t be written-off as a know-nothing kook.

    Neteurei Karta has been loudly arguing the same point for years–that rampant secularism and immorality in Israel is creating unnecessary enmity in the surrounding Arab countries and endangering the lives of Jews in Eretz Yisroel.

  46. Bob Miller says:

    Re: Hillel’s comment #45.

    I bet NK people are also nice to their mothers. Whatever else they’re doing or thinking, their support of anti-Jewish terrorists and terrorist nations (who are categorically anti all of us!) has to stop.

    Hillel, stop talking around this point.

  47. S. says:

    >Last week, Michael went-off on a 10-minute tirade

    That basically sums up Michael Savage. Gevald, a rayah from Michael Savage.

  48. Izzy says:

    Hillel,

    Considering that NK has shown publicly that it is mechalel shabbos, would you please ask “Rav” Beck to publicly denounce any member of NK who demonstrated on Shabbos, and to put them in Cherem?

  49. HILLEL says:

    Izzy:

    Maybe they had an eruv!

  50. Bob Miller says:

    “Izzy:
    Maybe they had an eruv!
    Comment by HILLEL — October 18, 2006 @ 9:34 am”

    I rather doubt that even an eruv of high stone walls would allow Jews to rally in support of the sworn enemies of the Jews on Shabbos.

  51. ari says:

    I heard a comment from Rav zev leff, on his website that this small group is diowned even by NK, and that while this group are obviously demented they should not be confused with mainstream nk who may be vigorously anti-zionist but don’t try to harm jews and violate halacha.

  52. Bob Miller says:

    I think that what Ari calls “mainstream NK” (Comment #51 above) no longer identify themselves specifically as NK, and they now use other organizational names.

  53. HILLEL says:

    To all anti-NK’niks:

    Why do these “post-Zionist” professors get a free pass, while you fulminate on the NK?

  54. Bob Miller says:

    Hillel, the professors get a free pass? Only in dreams.

  55. Ori Pomerantz says:

    Hillel, I think it’s because blatantly secular professors do not cause Chilul Hashem. Religious Jews do (in general, without getting into the question of whether what NK does is Chilul Hashem). Also, members of each group need to police their own. I’m sure very few people in Israeli universities censure NK – they are irrelevant to them. Similarly, very few Orthodox Jews would see the need to censure post-Zionist professors, unless they were in the same faculty.

  56. john rose says:

    Author Yakov Rabkin in his comments above is disingenuous. He wrote a whole book about NK’s opposition to Zionism but falsely claimed this was “Judaism.” Rabkin is an active promoter of the death of Israel and appears in Canada, the United Kingdom and Switzerland with NK “rabbis” and Palestinian Arab fanatics singing this tune. He claims to be Orthodox, but came to Canada from the Soviet Union in 1973 and learnt his Judaism from a Catholic priest. Because of his vile hatred of the Jewish state of Israel, no yeshiva or synagogue in Montreal allows him to pray there.

  57. Tal Benschar says:

    “To all anti-NK’niks:

    Why do these “post-Zionist” professors get a free pass, while you fulminate on the NK?

    Comment by HILLEL”

    One word answer: Torah.

    One group accepts it and claims to live by it. So those of us who also accept it and live by it are calling them on the carpet for endangering Jewish lives and sterngthening the hands of those who, if they had the chance, would commit — let’s not mince words — Holocaust II. And if they believe otherwise, then they perfectly illustrate the Chofetz Chaim’s quip that one fool can do more damage than 10 reshaim.

    The other group does not accept the Torah, so there the discussion is more fundamental or at least on a completely different plain.

  58. HILLEL says:

    To Bob Miller:

    You said anti Israel professors get a free pass “only in dreams.”

    Here is a “free-pass” column from one of the most prestigious columnists in Israel, Larry Derfner, writing in one of the most prestigious newspapers in Israel, The Jerusalem Post:

    http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1159193473149&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

  59. Bob Miller says:

    Reagrding Comment #58

    I meant they get no free pass from people like us!

    Obviously, their own sympathizers in the press whitewash them.

  60. Dovy says:

    I don’t understand the hysteria of frum Zionists. Look, Zionists have all the arms, all the media, all the lobbies, all the rabbis, all the Congress, all the money. Why are you so afraid of a relatively tiny group of people who refuse to bow to the Zionist Baal? Why do they have to sound like Haman, who said “Kol Zeh Eyno Shoveh Li”?? Ve-hamayvin yovin……….

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