More on Disengagement

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7 Responses

  1. Hanan says:

    “those being uprooted from Gaza are still in the role of Yitzchak Avinu on the way to the Akeidah.”

    What? We are now actually comparing them to a person that we consider holy? That they are actually being sacrificed for some reason that it is above our understanding? These people are not holy and they are not being sacrificed. Im indeed a fan of Cross-Currents but I can’t say that I am pleased to see that it has become a medium for “Anti-Disengagment Propaganda.” Never once have I heard on this site about the fanatic residents in Gush Katif that threaten Suicide if they taken out of their homes. How does that go along with Jewish values? The Suffering of the Residents of Gaza? What about the suffering of those that need to leave their homes in the West Bank. Did we forget about them. And then the whole shpeel about the lack of Civil Rights given to those people in Gaza. You are obviously using this as a means to get some MORE simpathy from your readers. Civil liberties are an issue and a problem with everyone not only the poor settlers.

  2. Netanel Livni says:

    I am surprised that a post like Hanan’s got through. These are people that were fulfilling the mitzvah of Yeshuv Eretz Yisrael MeHadrin min HaMehadrin. They exemplify a type of misirut nefesh that we have not seen in ages. They have created model communities. They have a tremendous amount of Torah learning and the Gush is home to some of the greatest young talmidei chachamim and masmidim alive today, especially Rav Shmuel Tal shlit”a (see that approbations for Tal Chaim which included enthusiastic haskamot from gedolim across the entire spectrum of the Torah world).

    The people in the gush also create a buffer between the Arabs of Aza and the Jewish cities in the southern Negev. What will all of those who support this crime say when Kassam rockets start falling on Ashkelon? These are Holy Jews and Hanan’s comment reflects neither rachamim, baishanut, or gemilut chasadim.

  3. Hanan says:

    Netanel

    You missed my point. It was regarding comparing what they are going through to Yizthak Avinu. In fact, you missed the whole thing. I specifically referred to the fact that C-C does not look at the suffering of others as well such as people that have to leave their West Bank homes. Why not talk about them, is it cause you say, they are not Talmidei chachamim? What about all the other settlements in Gaza that are being dismantled. Are they all talmedei chachamim? Do you feel sorry for them as well? Cause I sure have not read anything about that. And all of a sudden talk about their Civil Rights. Im not condonning ANYONES civil liberties to be trampled on. But its funny to me to bring up that topic and use as if now we should feel even more for their suffereing. If an Arabs civil liberties are trampled on will there be a post on that here? Its also funny that we even talk about Civil liberties considering its the Government that has given them these Civil Liberties in the first place. If you want to talk about democratic ideas such as civil liberties at least realize that this democratically elected gov’t that is telling them to leave, is also the democratically elected gov’t that gave them the land in the first place and also (coincidentally) the same democratically elected gov’t that gave them these Civil Liberties.

    By the way, can you explain to me how Gush Katif is a buffer between the Arabs of Aza and Jewish Cities of the southeren Negev. From maps that I see, Gush Katif is located near the egyptian border near the southern end along the beach. How exactly is it a buffer zone in between Rafah and Khan Yunis and the Jewish cities of the Negev?

    “What will all of those who support this crime say when Kassam rockets start falling on Ashkelon?”

    Ashkelon is north of Gaza, how would Gush be a buffer zone in the first place. I have friends in Sderot that have been bombared with Kassaming. I don’t think that Gush Katif has been doing such a great job of being a buffer zone there.

  4. Netanel Livni says:

    Hanan,

    who is talking about civil rights? I am talking about Jewish rights and Jewish souls. Souls that are intrinsically holy whether or not they are talmidei chachamim and souls that I feel for much more than I ever could for an Arab simply because they are my brothers and not my enemy. The level of sympathy leftists like you feel for the enemies of the Jewish people and the level of disdain you show with every word for your own brothers astonishes me.

    As far as security is concerned. If you look more closely at the map, you will see that Dugit, Elei Sinai, and Nisanit are at the very north of the “strip” and constitute an essential buffer for Ashkelon and Ashdod. The southern gush towns make it very difficult for the Arabs to smuggle arms into the rest of the strip. Also, don’t forget, that without the settlements, the army presence in Aza will be greatly reduced and the Arabs will have greater freedom of action to terrorize the Negev towns. Why do you think the Knesset just allocated 3.6 million shekels to set up early warning systems for Negev towns that never had a kasam fall within 15 miles of their border?

  5. Hanan says:

    Natanel-

    Whether your talking about Civil Rights is irrevelant. The post itself brought it up (along with other posts). And it bothers me that civil liberties (or the lack of) would be brought in to play on our sympathies more as if they are the only ones in Israel to have their liberties trampled on. My sympathy lies not in the Arabs, but all the Jews in Israel. Just because I feel that Jews should not be in Gaza does not mean I sympathize with the Arabs. I don’t honor fanatasism, whether its from my brothers or anyone else (i.e. those that would committ suicide if forced to leave) And your still missing my point. I was saying that we never talk about those settlements that are not known to be religious. The discussion is always based on Gush Katif and like you said before, its Talmidei Chachamim while there has never been a peep about, for example, Ganim, which is not known as a Religious settlement. Its funny that you can even call me a leftist, because if you knew me, you would know Im definetly not on the left. But I guess one cannot have an opinion thats outside the main sphere of the right without immediatly being accused of having sympathy for the enemy.

    Regarding security, I know very well where Dugit, Nisanit etc are located, but you call it an essential buffer zone. Funny, it has not been doing such a great job at it. Like I mentioned before,Sderot has been bombared numerous times. I fully agree with you, the armies presence there will be fully gone, but that just means that those soldiers and resources can be put to protect the main Israeli borders and not the settlements.

  6. Netanel Livni says:

    Hanan,

    Of course the northern settlements do not protect yeshuvim like sderot that are located to the east of the Gush, but they do protect Ashkelon to the north. Further, the army’s presence in Aza is what gives them whatever little edge they have in making it a little harder for the kasam factories to operate. Without a presence, the Arabs will be able to manufacture far greater weapons that will reach much further.

    I do not want to mislead you. My opposition to the plan does not stem from security concerns (although there are many) nor from civil rights concerns (I will gladly do to the Arabs what Sharon would do to the Jews). My concern is a Religious one. This plan goes against several essential commandments to settle the land and to not allow gentiles a foothold in the land. It also constitutes a retreat during an obligatory war and many other prohibitions. See Rav Shapiro’s Shlit”a psak on http://www.inn.co.il/news.php?id=120599 for details on the many halachic issues involved plus sources.

    As far as the secular yeshuvim are concerned. Of course they also have intrinsic holiness, but it is hard to fight for a yeshuv like Ganim or Kadim when its own citizens want to leave. Therefore most of the battle against this plan focuses on those settlements (mostly religious) that do not want to be kicked out of their land.

    I apologize if the previous posts were a bit personal. I tend to have strong emotions regarding the expulsion of Jews from their land.

  7. Saul says:

    It seems to me that there is a parallel between the experience the “Dati L’umi” crowd is having with the yishuvim and the experience the “Chareidi” world is having with the yeshivah/kollel stipends. Both groups placed a tremendous focus on a reltively new implementation of a timeless fundamental of Yiddishkeit (limud Torah/Eretz Yisroel), both relied for support on an entity steeped in a history of secular motivations, and both have now seen that entity “betray” them. Perhaps everyone has something in common after all.

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